Terrorists claim victory in Spain

[Sava]

Originally posted by Arrian
The KLA, yeah, that's it. They were not nice fellows.

I think if we had taken the time to do a little more research on the problem, we might have realized what the Serbs were dealing with in the KLA, and taken a different approach. Something like that of a mediator, trying to get the Serbs to stop beating on Albanian Kosovars if the KLA agreed to dialogue rather than violence.

I agree.

As for the last bit, that's pretty clearly your own political bias. Surely you see that? Clinton does something wrong, but you generally like and agree with Clinton, so you pass that off as a more-or-less well-meaning mistake. You hate Bush, so his mistakes are sinister in nature.

-Arrian

actually, in terms of Kosovo... I hate Clinton's policies. Bush's are worse, IMO, because there is more risk for American troops. How many American soldiers died in Kosovo? Wait, there were no ground troops. So far, over 550 troops have died in Iraq, and over a 100,000 more are targets. Our involvement in Iraq is a greater danger to American lives than Kosovo was... regardless of who is president.

What irks me more about Bush is he KNOWS that what he is doing is wrong, but he's driven (IMO) by a personal vendetta to get Saddam.

My Bush-hatred isn't blind... it's for a reason... and its very pragmatic.

The reasons why I think Iraq is more of a mistake is also part of the reason I hate Bush so much... overall, I like Clinton better for his domestic policies. But my hatred of Bush's domestic policies isn't being blurred into hatred of his foreign policy. For example, I think Dubya's daddy's policies were better, and I don't hate him for his foreign policies. I hate Dubya's daddy for other reasons.

Does that make sense?

[Nubclear]

Yeah.
The Spanish people didn't even support the war!

And now the USAmericans are saying that the Spanish people gave the terrorists a victory (Joe Scarborough of MSNBC almost compared them to the terrorists themselves)......
I was already ashamed to be living in America, but now I'm disgusted.
The Spanish people have my heart, for both of my mothernations know what its like to endure terrorism....America is always in its constant frame of mind that its right in everything and everyone else is wrong (and therefore evil)...Yet they want to take this event and make it into something that somehow the Iraq war is the best and if anybody doesnt support it then damn they are TERRORISTS! I'm sick and tired of the self-righteous indignation that plagues the United States.
Hopefuly someday America will take a look at itself: Fighting a never ending war against terrorism, without any true allies at all, while its power continues to sap away, and then maybe just MAYBE America will realize its fault, take control of itself, and dedicate itself to good instead of this wayward path it has chosen to pursue for all its existence.

Spain

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I think I must ask for your party card now.

kerry and bush are honestly about the same (I would prefer kerry slightly)

what is good is someone different

even though I disagree with them on some issues

but they are true socialists

SPUSA

KM<

[Sava]

Jon Miller... you need to give up drinking.

[germanos]

What I find truely strange, and in fact truely disturbing, is the Spain-bashing that has been going on over the last few days on this forum.

As far as I know, there has been no calls in the spanish elections to withdraw the spanish troops from Iraq BECAUSE of the terrorist attacks.
Yet, this assumption keeps being fed into the discussion, one way or another.

The principle arguement for this assumption is that al-qaeda will hold this view, while there are no facts that support the idea that the spanish electorate have changed their views to the precence of their soldiers in Iraq because of the attacks.

The allies of Spain in that war, the UK and the US, voiced here by several posters, appear to be more interested in the presumed views of their enemy, al-qaeda, instead of listening to their friends and allies, who have in no way said they will stop their struggle against terrorists in general, or al-qaeda specificly.

It appears that the misconception that the war against Iraq (or against Saddam Hussein for that matter) was a battle in the war against al-qaeda specifically or terrorism in general, has sunken so deep into the minds of some posters here, that even now, a full year later (when its clear the war aginst Iraq was fought for many reasons, but NOT that it has been a succesfull contribution against terrorism), the spanish wish to detach them from this war, IS being seen as an act of cowardice.

To me, it is clear that the election results in Spain are NOT a victory for those who planted the bombs.

Reading the posts here the last days DO however make me wonder if the true benefit the terrorists get from their action, is the fact that the US and UK isolate THEMSELVES further, resolve in their stubborness, and value the supposed intentions of their enemies above the outspoken values of their friends and allies.


I find it quite disheartening to see that the spanish posters hardly speak out in these threads anymore.

The voice of the spanish electorate, who have spoken out against the war in Iraq, and consistantly so I must add, is being misunderstood as a vote against battling terrorism.
The spanish, victim of a terrile crime, still down on the ground and recuperating (sp?), unfortunately 'accustomed' to terror, are being stabbed in the back by those to whom they have pledged alligance (sp?)

[The Mad Monk]

Re: Re: Terrorists claim victory in Spain

Originally posted by oedo
Terrorists claim victory in Spain....

1. That's the same moronic lie as saying, invading Iraq was necessary in order to fight terrorism.
2. so after a terrorist attack only one (right-wing) Party should be allowed to win the elections? nothing else is acceptable? that's what you call democracy?

1. ...so you're saying they didn't claim victory?

2. ...where did I say that?

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
God damn...no one reads CNN.com anymore

Bombs 'to split Spain from allies'

MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A document published months before national elections reveals al Qaeda planned to separate Spain from its allies by carrying out terror attacks.

A December posting on an Internet message board used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers and obtained by CNN, spells out a plan to topple the pro-U.S. government.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.

Ninety percent of Spaniards had opposed Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's staunch support for the U.S.-led war against Iraq, and some have blamed his government's policies for the train bombings.

Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Monday he wanted the 1,300 Spanish troops in Iraq to return home by June 30 if the United Nations "doesn't take control of Iraq."

"I think Spain's participation in the war has been a total error," he said. (Full story)

Meanwhile, one of the five men arrested in connection with the bombings has links to the plotters of an al Qaeda-linked bombing in Casablanca last year, CNN has learned.

The May 2003 suicide attacks in Casablanca killed nearly three dozen people.

Spanish authorities have arrested three Moroccans and two Indians in connection with the Madrid bombings.

One of the men, Jamal Zougam, 30, has ties to two brothers who have been charged in connection with the Casablanca bomb plot, according to a Moroccan government official.

Zougam is also believed to be a follower of Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas, the alleged ringleader of al Qaeda in Spain, according to a Spanish court document.

All five are being held incommunicado under Spain's anti-terrorism law, which requires they be charged within five days of their detention.

Authorities said investigators tracked the men through a cellular telephone and a pre-paid telephone card discovered in a backpack containing explosives found shortly after Thursday's attacks.

Helping the investigation is a videotape in which a man claiming to be a military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe says the terrorist network was behind the bombings.

In the United States, Asa Hutchinson, the undersecretary for the Department of Homeland Security, said they thought the Madrid bombings had the fingerprints of al Qaeda.

"We do know that there is a connection to al Qaeda. We have verified that," he told CNN.

"At this point, there clearly is some link and we're going to continue to see the depth of that."

However, another administration official would only say Islamic fundamentalists remain high on the list of suspects.

"Things are slightly leaning towards Islamic fundamentalist responsibility, as opposed to pure ETA or al Qaeda," one senior administration official said.

ETA is a Basque separatist group that has been fighting for more than three decades for an independent state. The group is designated a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.

The U.S. intelligence community is considering the possibility the bombings may have been carried out by a number of people with various ties to terrorist groups, the senior administration official said, adding theories include the following possibilities:


- Islamic fundamentalists with support from ETA;

- Islamic fundamentalists with close ties to al Qaeda, although not necessarily "card-carrying members of al Qaeda"; or,

- Members of ETA or al Qaeda.

In the wake of the bombings, Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes announced Monday that a European Union anti-terrorist conference will be held Friday in Madrid. (Full story)

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he was confident Spain would continue to play a significant role in the war on terrorism.

"Terrorism has to be defeated," he said.

"I don't think the Spanish people are any more inclined to give any encouragement to terrorists or to give terrorists the slightest impression that they are not going to be engaged fully by the Spanish government -- no matter who is prime minister."

Powell added that he was not sure if the Madrid bombings affected the outcome of Sunday's elections: "But the one thing I'm quite sure of is that Spanish people remain committed in the war against terrorists."

Seems like they DID get what they wanted...

Apparently, they don't even read it when it's posted in a thread for their convenience.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap

Finally, it's like pulling teeth trying to get you to provide any reasons for your arguements.

Now I can attack them

Even is Dub thinks his overall action in Iraq is correct-ie, invading, are you claiming he sees the entirety of his actions 100% correct and would never envision changing his strategy in order to improve the possibility of eventual success?

I think if there was good evidence to suggest that the UN or Europe was changing its stance, I think Bush would reconsider. After all, he was probably convinced by his advisors to continue to try to get UN support (when it looked like he was ready to go without them).

I dont believe he is (foolishly) locked into keeping the UN out, but I think that the chances of any substantial movement by the French on this issue is extremely unlikely since they essentially led the opposition to the war in the first place. In addition, any movement by the administration toward giving interim power to the UN will be seen as weakness by (at least) the more conservative US voters. Finally, given the inability of the UN to resolve any substantive issue since Korea, why would Bush bother?

[yavoon]

spain so wussed out. good times for terrorism!

[GePap]

I am done with you Spence. So it's all the fault of the UN and the Europeans..? yup, and I guess any reasonable right-wing individual who agrees with Bush would agree with that..but I am not a Bush supporter, so whatever.

no point.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap
I am done with you Spence. So it's all the fault of the UN and the Europeans..? yup, and I guess any reasonable right-wing individual who agrees with Bush would agree with that..but I am not a Bush supporter, so whatever.

no point.

You must be dyslexic to have got that **** from what I wrote. It must be tough being a mind-reading MPD who cant read a simple comment.

[mrmitchell]

"al-Queda was victorious because Socialist Party won because Spain was terror-attacked" = "al-Queda was victorious because we invaded Afghanistan because America was terror-attacked."

If you label ANY reaction as caving to the terrorists, then lots of things are terrorist victories.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
"al-Queda was victorious because Socialist Party won because Spain was terror-attacked" = "al-Queda was victorious because we invaded Afghanistan because America was terror-attacked."

If you label ANY reaction as caving to the terrorists, then lots of things are terrorist victories.

sure is a good thing we dont label any reaction as caving then isnt it?

[GePap]

Originally posted by SpencerH


You must be dyslexic to have got that **** from what I wrote. It must be tough being a mind-reading MPD who cant read a simple comment.

to quote you buddy boy:

I think if there was good evidence to suggest that the UN or Europe was changing its stance, I think Bush would reconsider. After all, he was probably convinced by his advisors to continue to try to get UN support (when it looked like he was ready to go without them).

I dont believe he is (foolishly) locked into keeping the UN out, but I think that the chances of any substantial movement by the French on this issue is extremely unlikely since they essentially led the opposition to the war in the first place. In addition, any movement by the administration toward giving interim power to the UN will be seen as weakness by (at least) the more conservative US voters. Finally, given the inability of the UN to resolve any substantive issue since Korea, why would Bush bother?

[The Mad Monk]

We aren't talking semantics -- nor possiblities, might-have-beens, or what-ifs.

Al-Queda claimed the attacks were due to Spain's support of the United States. That is indisputable. The CNN article above proves that the intent of the attack was to topple the pro-U.S. government and replace it with one that would withdraw forces.

That is exactly what happened on Sunday.

Mission: Accomplished.