Bonds cheated. Strip him of home run record?

[rah]

For some people alcohol makes them calmer and could enhance their perforance. I used to bowl better when drinking then not drinking. I'm sure babe thought he was stronger when he drank. Perception becomes reality. You never know. But the point is, he was playing baseball while doing something illegal. (for those that accuse Barry of it)

[chequita guevara]

Or who cares. Unless you have proof other than someone's word . . .

[rah]

For Barry there is no proof yet. I agree.
I'm with the the it wasn't cheating since baseball didn't outlaw it, crowd.

My comment was for all those that said even though it wasn't technically cheating, it was against the law and immoral so Barry's record should be stripped.
In the 20's what Babe did was illegal and immoral, so his records should be stripped using that arguement.

[Arrian]

rah.

The best thing for all concerned, IMO, is to have good rules from now on and enforce them. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Japher
Equipment and Practice also increases performance, those should be banned too...

Are you seriously trying to come up with comparison between steroid use and practice?

But the point is, he was playing baseball while doing something illegal. (for those that accuse Barry of it)

The point is that Bonds was/is using performance enhancing drugs to improve his stats.

[Ming]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The point is that Bonds was/is using performance enhancing drugs to improve his stats.

Again... first... prove it. While it is clear that he had access to such drugs, and that his body looks like he was taking them, please show the proof that he was actually using them. Oh, that's right... you can't.

And Second... until this year, they weren't against the rules...

I agree that if he gets "caught" this year, and it's proven that he is taking them, that any records or stats from this year shouldn't count... but sorry, I don't believe MLB can take away records from somebody when they can't prove anything, and it wasn't against the rules.

[MRT144]

i knew burlingame was a drug haven. MAAAAAATEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOO!

[Guynemer]

This whole situation is ****ed up.

BUT, there is another issue relating to stats that no one ever talks about, and it is really only an issue in baseball.

Every single park is different. And that renders many records, particularly home run records, essentially meaningless.

For instance, imagine if Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron had played in Tiger Stadium for the duration of their careers; they both probably would have topped 800, 850, maybe even 900 HRs. Comerica Park? Take away 20-50.

Especially when one considers how, on average, parks are much smaller today than they were in the '20s, home run records are worthless.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Especially when one considers how, on average, parks are much smaller today than they were in the '20s, home run records are worthless.

Can you prove that? I always thought it was the other way around.

[Guynemer]

Well, I know the original "House that Ruth Built" had a 480ft (or so) centerfield fence... I used to have an old Baseball Encyclopedia that had all the old park dimensions in it... so did the old Front Page Sports Baseball PC game. The old parks were, in general, deeper. I'm sure I could dig up that sort of info online, if I really gave a crap.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Every single park is different. And that renders many records, particularly home run records, essentially meaningless.

That's why most 'new' stats (which people seem to deride) take into account park factors. Win Shares, OPS+, etc, take into account park and era factors (because some eras have higher or lower batting averages based on trends or the field itself)

Especially when one considers how, on average, parks are much smaller today than they were in the '20s, home run records are worthless.

Not totally true. While the House that Ruth Built had a 480ft CF fence, it ALSO had like a 280ft RF fence. Many ball fields were in city blocks which made the LF and RF fences very, very close while the CF was very far back (look at the Baker Bowl for instance).

The SABRmatricians, like Bill James, try to take into account these factors and how they influenced stats.

[Tuberski]

How about the fact that Ruth used a 54 ounce bat at one time and a 40 ounce bat when he hit 60 in a season.

Bonds, when he hit 73 was using a 32 ounce bat.

10 ounces makes for a BIG difference in bat speed.

When Babe hit 60 Home Runs he hit 14% of the entire leagues total!

To do that now, you would have to hit 300 homers.

ACK!

[Berzerker]

No, steroids only allow more strength training, they don't increase talent, and it's talent that allows Bonds to put wood on the ball. Besides, we'd have to look at all the drugs used by athletes throughout the 20th century and that would include alot of people who used speed/meth/crank which certainly enhances performance on the field, steroids only enhance performance in the gym.

[Berzerker]

Should players who weight trained have their records removed because some players didn't or don't lift weights? And I believe steroids don't do anything relevant other than allow muscles to "breathe" more when lifting weights so people can train more. It may be tougher to match the output of a weight trainer on steroids but do you really need to be that muscle bound to hit homers? Nope, it's timing...coordination... On the other hand it is "peculiar" to see so many homers from guys who were using these drugs, so I'm a bit more on the fence... I can't help but see these home run totals in a different light than homers hit by the old timers who weren't using drugs...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Guynemer
I say test every player each week, ban all who use steroids, and wipe the records off the books.


I know none of that will ever happen, but wouldn't it just warm your heart if did?

I agree with this. People should be allowed to compete on a level playing field without endangering themselves with steroids. This issue is one of the reasons that I no longer follow baseball. It just isn't interesting to me anymore. It's more like professional wrestling now. Everyone knows it's not real.