Oh geez, Kerry's an idiot

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
All I'm saying is that the idea to fund education on a national scale was at least present at the time of the ratification of the Constitution.

The government established by the Constitution requires each citizen to represent his own interests by voting. Understanding what is in one's best interest requires an education. Thus, to deprive a person of an education essentially amounts to disenfranchisement, since he would not be able to properly represent his interests.

And simply because something that is intended by a law is not immediately put in place does not mean that it is not mandated. The 13th through 15th amendments were ignored for almost a century.

It's a stretch, I realize, but I'm bored and I feel like playing devil's advocate, even if I suck at it.

Do you have quotes or evidence that those who wrote the ammendment in the firstplace interpreted it that way? Otherwise you seem to really be advocating an absurd level of judicial activism.

The education argument also doesn't seem to work at all because its confined to the highschool level. Since the Supreme Court previously ruled that school should only be manditory for students up untill 8th grade, all the judicial and legal history on this issue is against your suggestion.

[Kuciwalker]

Kerry is a f*cking moron

[Capt Dizle]

Do you know that particular feeling of weightlessness you get on a roller coaster when you have reached the top, but just before you start the free fall down?

That's how John Kerry is about to feel.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by PLATO
-I see no possible way to fund this on a federal level

-I see no way the States can handle another unfunded federal mandate.

-I see College and/or the entry into the workforce being delayed.

Alot of these issues are already addressed.

As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice/

If it can't be funded, it won't be implmented, so don't worry about it. We're talking about service DURING school, so it shouldn't delay college entry. I suspect the hours we are talking about are limited enough that it wouldn't intefere with entring the workforce. While the two year option might delay entry into college, we're talking about people who couldn't afford to go to college otherwise.

[Ned]

This is the first seriously stupid think I have heard from Kerry.

Wow, don't the Dems have anybody who is a serious candidate?

[Shi Huangdi]

Well, Jaguar Warropr are both from Maryland, where volunteer work for students is already mandatory. It's really a stupid system that doesn't work. Nobody does it enthusiastically, everyone begrudginly does it a chore. There is such an oversupply of volunteers because of the law it is often hard to get volunteer work because many have too many, and getting to a place that does have it is often very incovenient because close by places might not have one. Many of the places that do allow volunteers don't provide useful work for the volunteers because there is only so much work they need done, often volunteers end up just hanging around.

It inconviences the school because of all the paperwork and filing that needs to get done and it is the teachers that end up getting swamped with extra work because of all that coordinating the program requires. (For instance, all forms must be filled out in triplicate).

The program also punishes the brightest and hardest working students the most. Contray to stereotypes, not all high schoolers spend their time partying and watching TV, competition for the top schools is so competetive people who want to go into them have an insane amount of work they must do as they have to take alot of very challenging course and do extracuriccular work, and they have very little free time, so the community service often ends up as a burden for them.

Virtually all the students and teachers at my (overwhelmingly liberal) high school opposed this program. Like many high minded government programs, things that sound nice often have very hard implementation problems.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ned
This is the first seriously stupid think I have heard from Kerry.

Wow, don't the Dems have anybody who is a serious candidate?

GO KUCINICH!

[gamenaught]

I see it as an unreasonable burden on the poor.

What about the kid that has to work to help support the family or watch over younger siblings while the parents are at work? Or the kids that will lose earnings that would have helped put themselves through post-high school vocational technical training?

For an upper class kid, it could simply mean less time sunning by the pool. For those students, the real-world experience could be beneficial. But for poorer kids, it will put them further behind.

Hmmm….rich kids benefit, poor kids suffer. WTF!?! Did Kerry switch parties!?!

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by gamenaught
I see it as an unreasonable burden on the poor.

What about the kid that has to work to help support the family or watch over younger siblings while the parents are at work? Or the kids that will lose earnings that would have helped put themselves through post-high school vocational technical training?

For an upper class kid, it could simply mean less time sunning by the pool. For those students, the real-world experience could be beneficial. But for poorer kids, it will put them further behind.

I suspect that the number of hours wouldn't be that high. If this particular issue is your only objection to the program, you could set up provisions for the duty to be waved when the student could demonstrate financial hardship and show that he is making a good faith effort to work and alleviate that hardship in his spare time.

[gamenaught]

And double whammy: Low income jobs lost because of workers displaced by free labor.

So to sum it up, we have forced servitude, a heavily increased burden on the poor, and job losses for low-income unskilled workers.

Incredible.

[The Mad Monk]

This is nothing but a non-military draft, if mandatory.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Damn, I was late to this thread. People saying this is unconstitutional are, I'm sorry, ****ing morons. This isn't unconstitutional in the slightest. And the way he is doing it is by controlling federal funds (ie, do this or we take 5% of federal funding on education away... perfectly Constitutional, see South Carolina v. Dole).

I don't see it as a dumb idea, as long is isn't too much. It's just another school requirement (and really schools should take some class time out for this, IMO, but that is the state's decision).

[MrFun]

All the anti-Kerry hyperbole is not substantiated by any solid arguments. There's nothing unconstitutional here.


I'm still cheering for Kerry.

[NeOmega]

Thats right kids! You get to paint old people's houses for liberty! Wash off marina piers for justice! Pick up littering scumbag's junk for the American way!

GOOODDD BEEELEESSSSS AMMMMEERRRRICAAAA!

But at least he's not Bush right!? Because Bush is bad, and wait, Kerry voted for that Iraq thing, You see Bush made the PATRIOT.... wait, Kerry voted for that too. Ah, well.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
the problem is that for some fields, like science

you do most of your acheivements between the ages of 20-30

What? Most don't start until 30.

Originally posted by Jon Miller
you won't be doing much until you are 23, and you will be ~30 before you are doing well

18 for graduation of HS, and add 8 years more (4 years for a BS and 4 years for a PhD), and you will be 26 before you start, but you can't be on your own yet for most of the time.

Originally posted by Jon Miller
that is just too slow

That's because there's lots to learn.