Israeli vandalises Swedish suicide bomber art

[Agathon]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Agathon, it's a diplomatic function; if a piece of decor -- and when you get down to it, that's all it really is -- offends one of the participants, the host should seriously consider removing it.

I'd agree unless the person being offended is mistaken. In this case the offence is clearly based on a mistake.

Like in my "screw" example, the ambassador is just wrong about the artwork and his offence is based on a misunderstanding which it is his responsibility to deal with and not anyone else's.

Winston: It's true that people can intend to cause offence and pretend they meant something else when confronted.

Yet we have to take people's statements at face value, unless we have good reason to believe they are lying (if you think about it, this is required for communication to occur at all). And there seems to be no good reason in this case. Maybe the guy is a liar and really has a hard on for hot female terrorist action, but we have no good reason to think so.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon
Hey, that sucks. I thought we were supposed to complain if we thought someone was breaking the rules. Isn't that what the report button is for?

You complaint was registered... but it's none of your business how it was handled. With him being not active at the time of "your complaint"... it was handled in the normal fashion. In the case of KH, he was still active, so the warning came live... HE decided to not respond to the warning as asked... so he restricted himself.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I'm more than willing to believe the artist, since that is how the piece struck me. I'm more concerned over why Sweden would leave it there if Israel had given objections.

Because that would be the worst form of censorship. Not only would we be censoring deliberately offensive works (which I agree can sometimes be justified) but we would be allowing for censorship based on the suspicion of offensive intent, whether proven or not.

Not only would that prevent art from being displayed, but it would violate the fundamental value at issue in free speech: the right of a person to express his sincere belief and have it understood by others, without someone else telling him what he does or does not mean.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Agathon

Yet we have to take people's statements at face value, unless we have good reason to believe they are lying (if you think about it, this is required for communication to occur at all). And there seems to be no good reason in this case. Maybe the guy is a liar and really has a hard on for hot female terrorist action, but we have no good reason to think so.

Agathon, I tend to agree, but I still think there's reason to be concerned about the intentions of the "artist" if your perception is the installation is, to some extent, glorifying or - as the mother of one of the victims said - a "prize" to the bomber.

I wonder how many will now aspire to have the artist's full attention when he starts on his next piece. This could be viewed the equivalent of American Idol for all we know.

[The Mad Monk]

Given its a major piece in an exhibition specifically set up the conference, given it's the top Israeli official in Sweden that did the vandalism, given that he stated that it was planned, and given the public support given to him by the top official in Israel, I very much doubt it is simply a matter of "misunderstood art".

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ming

You complaint was registered... but it's none of your business how it was handled.

You are taking me too literally. That was my circumlocutory way of registering a complaint (i.e. please do something about this maniac). I could have asked you to spank Siro on the botty and it would have meant the same thing.

Now that would be entertaining. We could probably raise money for the site by providing a pay per view webcast. I'd pay to watch the floggings of several members, and no doubt they mine.

With him being not active at the time of "your complaint"... it was handled in the normal fashion. In the case of KH, he was still active, so the warning came live... HE decided to not respond to the warning as asked... so he restricted himself.

That is true.

[The Mad Monk]

Because that would be the worst form of censorship.

...

I'm going to bed, now.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Given its a major piece in an exhibition specifically set up the conference, given it's the top Israeli official in Sweden that did the vandalism, given that he stated that it was planned, and given the public support given to him by the top official in Israel, I very much doubt it is simply a matter of "misunderstood art".

I agree. It's more likely the aesthetic equivalent of the Rainbow Warrior bombing.

[Firelad]

Dang it, y'all are posting faster than I can read. And I read pretty fast too.
Time for my two cents.
Disclaimer: Pretentious and full of Long Words.


While I wouldn't call the execution of the idea utterly briliant (especially that I don't really like this style of art, personal thing forget it) - the idea behind the piece is, in my opinion, in fact utterly brilliant. It is the bitterest, sharpest, most painful irony since A Humble Proposal by Swift. Irony, my friends, is the most powerful form of artistic expression, and the most dangerous (for the artist, that is). It stings you right where it hurts, it is cynical, unmerciful - yet full of emotion. That image of Snow White, in the middle of a pool of blood, holding a dagger in her hand, as it were (although she does *not* which is quite important), conjurs up a most clear and painful vision of the unbelievable brutality, of the grotesque of what is going on here. Imagine her, Snow White from the tale, standing in the middle of the Ocean, making the green one red. What a twisted image. But that is the image of the reality I live in. That is why I appreciate it so much - The only way to convey that message, that image, is by twisting and tearing at the heart. Without mercy - cold steel has no mercy.
It is the mark of the Barbarian to destroy what he does not understand. But when the lack of understanding comes out of such an extraordinary blindness and self-centeredness like that of so many of my so-called countrymen it is worse than the Barbarian. I cannot describe it.
The pain of those left behind IS that piece - and nothing at all could convey it better.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Agathon


I agree. It's more likely the aesthetic equivalent of the Rainbow Warrior bombing.

Why did you have to bring the matter of bombings into this?

This is about art.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Osweld


This is art, not a newspaper article. Art is supposed to make you think, that is why she shows it in an 'unusual' way, and why she highlights the irony.

I took a white canvas and made a black mark on it. I marvel at the irony. If it were a newspaper, I could read it.

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by Firelad
It is the mark of the Barbarian to destroy what he does not understand . . . yada yada yada

No, it's the mark of the human to destroy that which he does not understand. And that which he does understand. And that which looks at him funny. And that which he just felt like destroying.

[Sikander]

"He pulled out the plugs and threw one of the spotlights into the fountain which caused the entire installation to short-circuit and made it totally life-threatening," he told TT.

I think TT got the quote wrong. I believe he said, "....made it like totally life-threatening." In a valley girl accent.

[Edan]

I guess they don't have fuses in Sweden?

[GePap]

The fact that is was pre-planned is even worse: a diplomat went into a museum planning to commit a crime- and it is even sadder that the government he represents is backing his actions.

I sympathize with Firelad and his pain at the absurd behavior of the right in Israel..they did make a [point in sweden..that the Israeli government is full of morons who would destroy anything that they dislike and cheer along those who would too- yeah, great way of building sypathy and understanding..of course, ilk like Sharon don;t want sympathy of understanding- they do better feeling like everyone hates them-it vidicates their actions and thoughts-nothing better than angry self-pity.

The conference is not about the ME, its about genocide, and Israel was invited, but if they don;t want to go, they are not needed either.