Communist Education?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
But, if this is your goal, anything that harms increasing productivity has got to be harmful to communism.

State ownership of businesses and suppression of competition demonstratively harms competition. It seemingly advances the goal of democratic control of the means of production, but at a very high cost that ultimately defeats the true goal of high productivity.

What advances Marx's goals best is nearly universal ownership of corporations (in general) by the workers while maintaining competition, as competition brings high and increasing productivity. But this is America, not Cuba.

How can you call a system that has collapsed, that the starving masses have rejected, as efficient. It may be productive, but not efficient because it's not allocating resources. It's the competition and lack of central planning that will cause the collapse.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
The US is actually approaching the ideal state that communism envisions.

This is certainly sig material.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
State monopolies are never as efficient in producing goods and services as are businesses that compete.

Besides the fact that this is false, distribution is another issue. Distributing resources efficiently, that is in a way that society benefits from them the most, is something that capitalism is very poor at. Just because things are produced and comsumed doesn't mean that they have been done so efficiently, even if you have done it at the lowest cost. Measuring the true benefits to society of what a system produces is difficult but certainly a system that produces only goods and services for those who have an ability and willingness to pay is not efficient in this regard.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Firstly I never said king, monarchy, or espoused any form of government or level of poltivcal system.

Secondly any example you use to try espouse the altruistic nature of man and his need to create social constructs can just as easily be shown to have more dark and sinister motives.

You still miss the point that what I described had nothing to do with altruism..read it again, and carefully this time:

People create this culture of hospitality becuase they expect returns for their actions- I care for you when you are in need, and you will reciprocate when I am in need- this web of obligations is created for self-interested reasons- maybe today I don;t need help- but what if I need help tommorrow and I have been a bastard and never helped anyone? NO one will help me, and then I am dead. That is not altruism, which is action without expectation of reciprication.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
They still are not. Peasants still are the majority, somewhere between 70% - 75% IIRC.

Don't forget the rural proletariat.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In any event, there's nothing we could do to stop anyone from slapping CPA on themselves.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap


You still miss the point that what I described had nothing to do with altruism..read it again, and carefully this time:

People create this culture of hospitality becuase they expect returns for their actions- I care for you when you are in need, and you will reciprocate when I am in need- this web of obligations is created for self-interested reasons- maybe today I don;t need help- but what if I need help tommorrow and I have been a bastard and never helped anyone? NO one will help me, and then I am dead. That is not altruism, which is action without expectation of reciprication.

Within that context I agree. Within the context of it being an essential need to be sociable, I disagree.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Besides the fact that this is false, distribution is another issue. Distributing resources efficiently, that is in a way that society benefits from them the most, is something that capitalism is very poor at. Just because things are produced and comsumed doesn't mean that they have been done so efficiently, even if you have done it at the lowest cost. Measuring the true benefits to society of what a system produces is difficult but certainly a system that produces only goods and services for those who have an ability and willingness to pay is not efficient in this regard.

The only thing central planning is good that is distorting economies into areas of production they would not otherwise go.

I give you the Nazi war machine as one example.

But if you take any product such as a widget and want to find out what system is better in producing a widget, you will find that competition always will bring you better and cheaper widgets than will a monopoly producing widgets.

As I said, what you claim to be efficient is choosing what to produce by committee rather than letting the market choose want to produce.

In the long run, planned systems can never compete with competitive systems in producing anything at high quality and low-cost.

[Ned]

And, kid, did you say that the United States was a collapsed capitalist system?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned


The only thing central planning is good that is distorting economies into areas of production they would not otherwise go.

I give you the Nazi war machine as one example.

And that is a big thing to be good for.

Originally posted by Ned
But if you take any product such as a widget and want to find out what system is better in producing a widget, you will find that competition always will bring you better and cheaper widgets than will a monopoly producing widgets.

It depends on the size of the market, or how many you want produced. Sometimes goods are produced cheaper with a monopoly because of the lower average costs associated with more production.

Originally posted by Ned
In the long run, planned systems can never compete with competitive systems in producing anything at high quality and low-cost.

Isn't this a contradiction to your first comment.

You overestimate the level of competition in the capitalist system. The most competitive markets are those that have relatively little profit associated with the price of the product or service. Labor is very competitive, but as a resource it is the least mobile in a free market. Another thing about labor is that wages are sticky on the way down. So competition alone can not make markets efficient.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
And, kid, did you say that the United States was a collapsed capitalist system?

No. Marx predicted that the revolution would come after the collapse of capitalism.

[Ned]

Kid, I don't overestimate anything as I have worked in both aerospace and in commercial products areas in my time. I can tell you that the more competitive commercial products area consistently produced higher quality, lower cost products.

Just think. Did the Communist Bloc ever produce any car than anyone in the West in their right minds would buy?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Kid, I don't overestimate anything as I have worked in both aerospace and in commercial products areas in my time. I can tell you that the more competitive commercial products area consistently produced higher quality, lower cost products.

I meant that you overestimate the level of competition in the economy. If you're in a competitive industry, you're in the wrong industry, because there isn't much profit there.

Originally posted by Ned
Just think. Did the Communist Bloc ever produce any car than anyone in the West in their right minds would buy?

I don't want to go here, defending the Communist Bloc.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kidicious


No. Marx predicted that the revolution would come after the collapse of capitalism.

So what if Marx predicted the next Ice Age. Marx was not God.

A lot of what Marx had to say about capitalism has got to be put to a lie by the reality of the USA. Production is high. Things are cheap. Everyone is taken care of, including old people. We are trending, rapidly trending, towards that utopia Marx envisioned.

Given their prosperity in today's America, why would any worker want to "revolt?"

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

In any event, there's nothing we could do to stop anyone from slapping CPA on themselves.