It does not matter if Iraq has or had WOMD's or not at this point

[sprucemoose3311]

I live in san jose, with a 7 percent unemployment rate and I would say the lower class, working class, and higher are doing beter. Those on unemployment benefits are still buying their SUVs also...

[Elok]

I'll repeat what I've always said: it never mattered. How was Saddam supposed to use them against us if he had them?

On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

[Kuciwalker]

The thing people seem to be forgetting in this is that in the debate over who will win the election, it doesn't matter whether or not the choice makes sense from the perspective of choosing a good president (I'm not even going to get into a debate on who has the better policy) - all that matters is what people THINK. And one thing everyone here should have figured out by now is that most people aren't rational...

In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...

Japan and Germany after WWII, maybe?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by sprucemoose3311
Those on unemployment benefits are still buying their SUVs also...

Credit abuse allows people to buy things that they cannot really afford so they slide further into debt because of their stupid consumption habits that are based on gratification.


So no -- buying such things as SUVS, fur coats, jewelry, and so on is not a sign of healthy economy -- it's a sign of stupid consumption habits based on gratification -- not caring if you can afford what you're buying on credit.

[Zylka]

what apt examples

Fur coats and Jewlery AAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by skywalker

In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...

Japan and Germany after WWII, maybe?

Germany had as long an experience with parlimentary democracy as France. The Kaisar's powers were subject to limitation by the Parliament.

Japan, IIRC, was a constitutional monarchy before the generals took control in the (1920s?).

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Sava
I'm in #4... I don't particularly like Dem's, but they are less evil. The two party system is complete crap. We need a radical change in the way we view politics in this country, or else it will be business as usual.

You are absolutely right, I still can't believe you think you're having a democracy there.
You only have 2 noteworthy parties (that are both rightwing in my eyes, although the democrats are still way better of coz); Your president has pretty much all the power, and the winner is chosen not because of his qualities but thanks to the media and the obligatory hugely expensive campaigns. I mean don't tell me Bush had done any noteworthy political deed in his entire life before he became president. Heh actually he was a total failure till he converted to strict christianity again.
PS: the opposition in the US is of no importance either, which is rather strange as here with us they still have a lot of influence

A government with a coalition is a whole lot safer in my eyes!

[GePap]

Originally posted by Elok

On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

No. Sorry. My fear is that the Bush amdin. is the wrong admin. to try such an experiment. And I whish this would become Dean's Iraq line: how can an admin. who fails to understand democracy at home build it anywhere else?

[Elok]

Yeah, I talked to my dad last night, and he mentioned WWII recovery too. I suppose that is in some ways a valid exception, but I guess my point is/was/should be that a society has to grow to a certain extent before it is ready to become a democracy. Iraq is a cluster of alienated peoples who hate and distrust each other with a passion. So is America, of course, but we're more civil about it. We had a democratic tradition stretching back before we were even independent. I don't know that they even want one over there. I also don't know that they know what they DO want, as a matter of fact. Been a long time since anyone's asked them, after all.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by rah


More like
Someone tell the anecdote again about how many educated Americans will vote for Bush again because they are much better off economically than they were 4 years ago and are now being taxed less on top of it.

Thanks GB.
Better investment income.
Better work income.
More job security.
Less taxes.

What country are you living in?

Since GW came to office:

Investment income has been down, or flat at best. The total stock market is still down about 2.5% since he came to office, even though the gains last year were impressive. Dividends have been lower than in the 90s.

Work income has been flat - most companies have stopped giving any sort of raises, claiming poverty. Personally, I was getting raises near 10% of my salary before Bush came to power. Now I'm lucky if my raise matches the cost-of-living.

Job security? The unemployment rate was close to 4% when Clinton left office. It is currently at 5.9% (as of Nov 2003). Sounds higher to me. From personal experience, I know several people who have lost jobs in the last three years and either continue to be unemployed or have been forced to take lower paying jobs. These are skilled people, too, that should command decent wages.

As for less taxes, yes, on a Federal level. Meanwhile state and local taxes are being increased to compensate for less Federal funding of local programs. Great - give with one hand and take with the other.

Wow, thanks GW.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Germany had as long an experience with parlimentary democracy as France. The Kaisar's powers were subject to limitation by the Parliament.

Japan, IIRC, was a constitutional monarchy before the generals took control in the (1920s?).

Long parliamentary democracy in Germany?


Other historians would beg to differ, by arguing that the Junker class and and the monarchs of Prussia, all the way up to the mid 19th century, established a long tradition of authoritarian rule.

Not until the liberalization of government rule in the late 19th century, did any real kind of parlimentary democracy emerge. So I think the words, "long tradition" are problematic to say the least.

[Ramo]

And it wasn't until the late-19th century that parliamentary democracy was firmly established in France (Louis Napoleon for instance had abolished the legislative assembly altogether).

[rah]

Originally posted by Stuie


What country are you living in?

THE US of A

I was speaking of personal experience. I think I know more about my personal experiences than you do.

If you had read the whole thread you might have seen that I was discussing personal experience, but I know you don't let those kind of details get in your way when you have a particular horse to beat.

[Pekka]

Yes it matters. Because, if they have them, well.. there are unaccounted WMDs not in our radar. WHat's going to happen to them? What if some rogue element rises its head in Iraq some years from now? What if someone decides to sell the WMD to terrorists? It matters very much if there is WMD and if we are to find them.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Elok
I'll repeat what I've always said: it never mattered. How was Saddam supposed to use them against us if he had them?

On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

This is the kind of thinking that caused me to think that leaving Saddam in power was the right thing to do in 1991.

My views changed on this after 9/11.