my pete peve again: Just because its in a book dosent give it credibility

[Buck Birdseed]

Success in academia is no guarantee for success in life.* In fact, some of the greatest minds in history have found the strictly hierarchical structure stifling and intellectually stilted. I'm not sure to what extent it is but I do think that the "learn this first, learn the real stuff later" approach che favours is ridiculous and deprives the vast majority of college students of the most valuables skill academia should teach you, namely to be able to both construct and analyse arguments and to critically assess the value of various sources from a clear theoretical viewpoint.

I've got a friend who's currently a postgraduate at Cambridge, and she tells me she was amazed when she was writing her first essay there and her tutor told her that she needed a more argumentative structure. She had managed to get a first (highest grade) at York, one of the top ten universities in britain, withous having written a single properly structured essay carrying though an idea. Throughout her course she'd written essays purely by looking at her textual sources, examining the evidence, and then using one on the other and writing a conclusion. All she learned was the theories of others and how to copy them.

I've had tons of teachers encouraging me to do the same, discouraging any thought I had of my own etc., but luckily one of my subjects (philosophy) was such that such an approach was not possible, or I'm not sure where I would have ended up. I think it's crucial that people have ideas of their own and learn how to critically assess those of others through them... It really helps you in intellectual development if you can "slot" new facts into a theoretical framework you've built yourself.

*At least I hope it isn't.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
the "learn this first, learn the real stuff later" approach che favours . . .

I don't favor it. I'm just saying that's the way it is.

[Tripledoc]

I think what the text says is not so interesting as how the text is styled and what means are employed to make the case convincing and interesting. Contrary to popular belief some academics are actually very skilled and proficient writers, and often there is great humour to be found there. For true insight however one should rely on intuition and not logic.

[Patroklos]

I don't think you have too much experiance with cheating if you think it is that easy to get away with, at least in paper writing which is what this thread is about. You don't even have to submit the paper. There are websites were a teacher can just type a line of text from you work and it will find anything with a certain percent similarity.

I was on the honor court at my school and we were ruthless. Most cases were people who tried to paraphrase, and we caught alot of them. Granted, my schools is MUCH more strict than most.

[asleepathewheel]

turnitin.com

a brilliant site

though still a bit flawed

[Mercator]

You've just solved your own problem. Print out this thread and show it to your profs.

[SpencerH]

I dont grade undergrad work. I do review articles for some decent journals in my field. My system works like this. If it relates to my work and cites me (as it should) it has a shot at passing my review. If it doesnt cite me, they dont know enough about the subject and I grind it into the dirt :laughs maniacally:

[Spiffor]

I hope there are only a handful of people in your field then.

[lord of the mark]

this sounds odd - when i was in school, in a humanities or social science class it generally was a good thing to make your own arguments, as long as you stayed close to the source material you were supposed to be studying. Long speculations were discouraged, but not a close reading of the text. Discussing a secondary source was important only IF the secondary material was what you were supposed to be studying and supposed to be responsible for - in which case you WERE supposed to discuss the secondary material, but you COULD disagree with it, as long as you marshalled evidence and reasoned argument - now what was considered REASONED argument of course varied with the bias of the teacher/ department - what would pass as reasoned argument for a Marxist sociology prof was considered BS in the Econ department.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
I've had tons of teachers encouraging me to do the same, discouraging any thought I had of my own etc., but luckily one of my subjects (philosophy) was such that such an approach was not possible, or I'm not sure where I would have ended up. I think it's crucial that people have ideas of their own and learn how to critically assess those of others through them... It really helps you in intellectual development if you can "slot" new facts into a theoretical framework you've built yourself.

I refuse to base my papers on others... what I DO do is analyze the source material myself, leaving gaps for secondary sources, then find those secondary sources to plug in.... works fine usually.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
this sounds odd - when i was in school, in a humanities or social science class it generally was a good thing to make your own arguments, as long as you stayed close to the source material you were supposed to be studying. Long speculations were discouraged, but not a close reading of the text. Discussing a secondary source was important only IF the secondary material was what you were supposed to be studying and supposed to be responsible for - in which case you WERE supposed to discuss the secondary material, but you COULD disagree with it, as long as you marshalled evidence and reasoned argument - now what was considered REASONED argument of course varied with the bias of the teacher/ department - what would pass as reasoned argument for a Marxist sociology prof was considered BS in the Econ department.

That is how it should be, lol.

[civman2000]

I'm in high school, and thankfully all of my English teachers have always emphasized developing your own idea and very strongly discouraged using any secondary sources unless they were required for the assignment.

[Japher]

That is how it should be, lol.

Blah!!! If everything were how it should be we'd all be communist! If you want the grade do what they want. If your going to work in the real world your going to have to learn to kiss a little arse and bend over every now and then............

[Vesayen]

I've inserted my nose into so much posterior this year I've lost my sense of smell-which may actually be benificial........ I learned how to be selectivly sycophantic before I got to college lol.

[GhengisFarb™]

Just because its in a book doesn't give it credibility

Yep, maybe someone should tell Michael Moore we're on to this scam.