Dopes are suing to ban "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City"

[lord of the mark]

David Denby, "Buried Alive" (The New Yorker, 1996)

"Even if the child’s character is not formed by a single TV show, movie, video game, or computer game, the endless electronic assault obviously leaves its marks all over him.... Sold a bill of goods from the time they are infants, many of today’s children, I suspect, will never develop the equipment to fight off the system of flattery and propitiation which soothes their insecurities and pumps their egos. By the time they are five or six, they’ve been pulled into the marketplace. They’re on their way to becoming not citizens but consumers....
Whether the sets are off or on, the cruddy tone is in the air and on the streets. The kids pick it up and repeat it, and every week there are moments when I feel a spasm of fury that surges back and forth between resentment and self-contempt. In those moments, I don’t like the way my boys talk -- I don’t like the way they think. The crude bottom-line attitudes they’ve picked up, the nutty obsessive profanity, the echo chamber of voices and attitudes, set my teeth on edge. The stuff fits, and they wear it. What American parent hasn’t felt that spasm? Your kid is rude and surly and sees everything in terms of winning or losing or popularity and becomes insanely interested in clothes and seems far, far from courage and selfhood.

Aided by armies of psychologists and market researchers, the culture industries reach my children at every stage of their desires and their inevitable discontent. What’s lost is the old dream that parents and teachers will nurture the organic development of the child’s own interests, the child’s own nature. That dream is largely dead. In this country, people possessed solely by the desire to sell have become far more powerful than parents tortuously working out the contradictions of authority, freedom, education, and soul-making."

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Has anyone here played the game in question?

When they say "Kill the Haitians" do them mean any Haitians or specific Haitian drug dealers?

che, this is the kind of thing that pushes me towards Socialism.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Imran, Sava, etc al: Is it really that important that the game says "Kill the Haitians" instead of, "Kill them?" Will it affect game play at all?

Is it really that big of a deal for the Cuban gang to say 'Kill the Haitians' instead of 'Kill them'? What's the big deal?

Yeah, I agree. Context is a big factor here. And this is a game that thrives on being as offensive and violent as possible anyway. Don't you get points for killing cops?

[Japher]

LotM, it is capitalism that encourages these types of law suits, socialism that allows them, and democracy that tries them. If there were no socialism they would be laughed out of court like they should be. No one was physically hurt, no damages occured... cased closed. It is sociallism that brings in "my feelings" aspect of all this heading way to a law suit.

I think this is kind of like that guy in San Diego who tried to sue a club because they charged less for women; cost him nothing not to go if he didn't want to, but his feelings were hurt because he felt he was being discriminated agains... boo hoo

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Jac de Molay
Yeah, I agree. Context is a big factor here. And this is a game that thrives on being as offensive and violent as possible anyway. Don't you get points for killing cops?

I think you get points for killing anything, and destroying anything

[chequita guevara]

I wonder how much of that snippet comes from the traditional fear of our children? Dennis Byrne wrote an article denigrating Gen X over a decade back, which still burns me up. We fear what the market makes of our kids, and not without good reason. We want them to grow up to be whole human beings, rather than the stunted montsers known as consumers.

I'm not exactly sure we should be so worried. After all, the first generation to be raised on TV, the Boomers, fought for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and to end the Vietnam war, etc.. The first generation to be raised when Madison avenue understood the medium, Gen X, raged against the Gulf Wars, the WTO, against sweatshop slavery, etc.

One of the most endearing qualities of humans is that you can pump their minds full of garbage, and they still have the capacity to turn out as humans. Which isn't to suggest that its a universal or that we couldn't produce a better generation if we actualy tried nurturing them instead of turning them into little consumers.

I guess I'm not as worried, asI've seen this thing before.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think you get points for killing anything, and destroying anything

Rampages will get you big points... and of course get the cops on your ass.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
David Denby, "Buried Alive" (The New Yorker, 1996)

"Even if the child’s character is not formed by a single TV show, movie, video game, or computer game, the endless electronic assault obviously leaves its marks all over him.... Sold a bill of goods from the time they are infants, many of today’s children, I suspect, will never develop the equipment to fight off the system of flattery and propitiation which soothes their insecurities and pumps their egos. By the time they are five or six, they’ve been pulled into the marketplace. They’re on their way to becoming not citizens but consumers....
Whether the sets are off or on, the cruddy tone is in the air and on the streets. The kids pick it up and repeat it, and every week there are moments when I feel a spasm of fury that surges back and forth between resentment and self-contempt. In those moments, I don’t like the way my boys talk -- I don’t like the way they think. The crude bottom-line attitudes they’ve picked up, the nutty obsessive profanity, the echo chamber of voices and attitudes, set my teeth on edge. The stuff fits, and they wear it. What American parent hasn’t felt that spasm? Your kid is rude and surly and sees everything in terms of winning or losing or popularity and becomes insanely interested in clothes and seems far, far from courage and selfhood.

Aided by armies of psychologists and market researchers, the culture industries reach my children at every stage of their desires and their inevitable discontent. What’s lost is the old dream that parents and teachers will nurture the organic development of the child’s own interests, the child’s own nature. That dream is largely dead. In this country, people possessed solely by the desire to sell have become far more powerful than parents tortuously working out the contradictions of authority, freedom, education, and soul-making."

Yeah, this makes good points. But then whose problem is it? I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence....

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I wonder how much of that snippet comes from the traditional fear of our children? Dennis Byrne wrote an article denigrating Gen X over a decade back, which still burns me up. We fear what the market makes of our kids, and not without good reason. We want them to grow up to be whole human beings, rather than the stunted montsers known as consumers.

I'm not exactly sure we should be so worried. After all, the first generation to be raised on TV, the Boomers, fought for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and to end the Vietnam war, etc.. The first generation to be raised when Madison avenue understood the medium, Gen X, raged against the Gulf Wars, the WTO, against sweatshop slavery, etc.

One of the most endearing qualities of humans is that you can pump their minds full of garbage, and they still have the capacity to turn out as humans. Which isn't to suggest that its a universal or that we couldn't produce a better generation if we actualy tried nurturing them instead of turning them into little consumers.

I guess I'm not as worried, asI've seen this thing before.

ok, point taken but

1. in each generation you mentioned the activists were the minority.

2. Just being an activist doesnt mean you turned out a whole human being


3. I wonder how many of todays activists come from the minority of homes were electronic entertainment is radically limited?


4. The boomers were relative media innocents compared to todays kids. we had what, a half dozen tv stations? If you didnt like what was on them, you actually had to go out and play - now they have hundreds of TV stations, videos, consoles, the net, etc. The fact that in every era says "this is the collapse" doesnt mean the collapse can never occur.


In any case im not quite as worried as Denby is (partly because i see some parents successfully fighting the trend, in part inspired by Denby and others like him - their own form of activism - and partly cause there was a reevaluation post 9/11 - while that seems less strong now, i think things are still in a state of flux - of course thats precisely the time to do battle) - I do think he has some interesting things to say on the nature of childhood, parenting, media and soulforming.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jac de Molay


Yeah, this makes good points. But then whose problem is it? I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence....

Yet someone else who thinks parents should be around 24/7 to monitor their kids habits - womem should give up their careers so you dont have to see the media blamed, etc. Parenting isnt simple, you may find out someday.

[Japher]

I think it's the parents, with their materialistic workaholic egos running wild, that are influencing these kids more than the Media. It's the same parents who made the TV the electronic babysitter, and then wonder why their kids can't be weened from its soul-sucking influence

I think it is the parents who are NOT influencing their kids enough and putting them in front of the TV babysitter. Parents need not be around their children ALL the time, but should be influential enough in their lives to know that TV is a form of entertainment and education, it is a tool, not a way of life.

[lord of the mark]

to follow up further on che's points - most of the boomer parents whose kids are living on electronic junk are NOT former activists. Whereas i know a few former (and to some extent current) activists who take a different stand. One of the reasons in RL i like hanging out with those folks (good if we can keep the discussion off foreign policy )

And before someone says "aha! see you can keep the media from your kids, so it IS the parents fault" I will only say that it can be awfully hard on those parents, facing peer pressure on themselves, their kids, etc. We dont live as isolated individuals (or even on communes, anymore) we live in a broader society, and what happens in that society impacts all of us.

[lord of the mark]

one more point re the personal experience thing

The crudeness/violence thing seems more of a boy thing. having had a girl, and no boy, i dont know how we would have dealt with it. The girl thing tends to be the popularity clothes-obsession thing. We managed to avoid that, whether through parenting, religion, or the fact that POTM was not in the "in-crowd" at school and was forced to develope an alternative identity, and has now moved on to a Gifted and talented program where she can hang with similar fashion challenged nerdy girls all day, I dont know.

Anyone here whos raising a boy?

[Japher]

LotM: I agree with you, but I still feel it is the parent's responsibility to monitor the childrens "habits". It is not like this is a 24/7 job, nor is instilling values and a sense of reality.

I am firm believer that parents these days do not know how to raise kids. An increasing number of grandparents seem to be raising their grandchildren. Also, you can't deny the fact that many of these people "who do not have time to spend with their children" still find time for themselves.

Also, having a child is a responsibility not only when you have them, or when your about to have one, but even when you are planning to have one. If you do not have the time now to dedicate to the child then what makes you think you will after the child is born? People, in general, have become irresponsible these days, and not only to themselves, but their children.

Parents also aging, why? Because people like to party more or plan these things later in life. I owe rising costs of real estate, increase median skilled labor numbers, and increases in childhood diseases to this irresponsibilty ppl seem to posses.

I do not blame media for the acts of people, I blame people...

[DanS]

Vice City