I got a question.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


With all that, what exactly in this glorious legacy of American history is there for most blacks to celebrate or embrace, other than mere survival?

Lets see, the courage and perseverance of their ancestors under slavery, the glory of the 54th Massachusetts, the abolitionists, WEB Dubois, the Harlem renaissance, Jazz, the civil rights movement, the Buffalo soldiers, the Tuskegee airmen, the rights outlined in the declaration. And thats just off the top of my head.

Are there any african american posters here who can better answer MTG's question?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Why don't more Southerners embrace their copperhead ancestry?

surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MrFun


True, symbols can have multiple meanings depending on the context or circumstance of its display and use.

So please tell me why the majority of blacks are either indifferent, or offended by the Confederate flag.

Obviously symbols mean different things to different people. Since i cant speak as a black, i'll speak as a Jew. Swastikas used as graffiti in this country by wayward youngsters are clearly most of the time meant simply as ways to defy "morality" and to express rebellion, not as political symbols. Yet to my and to other jews it is alway and everywhere (well the possible exception of ancient Buddist sites where no one knew about Nazis) a symbol of mass murder. Or take the crucifix - to christians the beloved symbol of Christs sacrifice, to most atheists a symbol of a religion with which they disagree, to more than a few jews a symbol with overtones of calls of "christ killer", blood guilt, and pogroms. We are shaped by our histories.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Lets see, the courage and perseverance of their ancestors under slavery,

The legacy of slavery, nice. Something "American" to celebrate, as opposed to something personal, I see.

the glory of the 54th Massachusetts,

Led by inexperienced (though reasonably capable) white officers, directed to pointless slaughter by inept white officers in a suicidal frontal attack on a minor outlying fort on a tertiary front.

the abolitionists,

A minority of liberal whites who wanted to get rid of something that never should have existed, but without which, those people would still be in Africa.

WEB Dubois,

The presence of significant individuals throughout history doesn't make it an aspect of "American" history worth celebrating - black history or pride, maybe, but nothing particularly American except this was the nation and society with which Dubois had to struggle against the usual legacies of racism, patronization and discrimination.

the Harlem renaissance, Jazz, the civil rights movement, the Buffalo soldiers, the Tuskegee airmen, the rights outlined in the declaration. And thats just off the top of my head.

Again, these happened despite, or struggling against, the indifferent to comtemptuous to oppressive to outright lethal background of racism, and many of the items on your list were individual or collective struggles against injustices inflicted by the dominant American society to keep "darkie" in his place.

Certainly, there's a lot of individual courage and struggle and perseverance to be proud of, but that's a cultural and social legacy for American blacks, not a historic or social legacy of the country which inflicted so much injustice on their ancestors.

Are there any african american posters here who can better answer MTG's question?

Carver used to hang around here somewhere, if he's not a poser or DL, but he thinks I'm a redneck *******.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

Carpetbaggers were Yankees. Traitors who collaborated with them were "scalawags."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
surely you mean their carpetbagger ancestry? It white northeners (especially, but not only, in the lower midwest) who would have copperhead ancestry.

Nyet. Copperheads were Southern pro-unionists. Butternuts were Northern supporters of the Confederacy. There are a lot more butternuts around today than copperheads, it seams.

Carpetbaggers came after the war, and are still around today. I'm a carpetbagger, as I came to the South for a job.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Nyet. Copperheads were Southern pro-unionists. Butternuts were Northern supporters of the Confederacy. There are a lot more butternuts around today than copperheads, it seams.

Carpetbaggers came after the war, and are still around today. I'm a carpetbagger, as I came to the South for a job.

No southern proUnionists were called Scalawags, ISTR. Copperheads were northern Peace Democrats. Butternuts were midwesterners of southern ancestry, regardless of political affiliation.

I suggest James McPherson's "Battlecry of Freedom for a good one volume history".

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Carpetbaggers were Yankees. Traitors who collaborated with them were "scalawags."

carpetbaggers were yankees indeed. But their descendants would be southerners.

[chequita guevara]

No, Scalawags were collaborators with the Union occupation.

[MrFun]

Carpterbaggers were Northerners who moved down to the Southern states, and scalawags were white Southerners who supported the Union and/or were advocates for racial equality.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


The legacy of slavery, nice. Something "American" to celebrate, as opposed to something personal, I see.



Led by inexperienced (though reasonably capable) white officers, directed to pointless slaughter by inept white officers in a suicidal frontal attack on a minor outlying fort on a tertiary front.



A minority of liberal whites who wanted to get rid of something that never should have existed, but without which, those people would still be in Africa.



The presence of significant individuals throughout history doesn't make it an aspect of "American" history worth celebrating - black history or pride, maybe, but nothing particularly American except this was the nation and society with which Dubois had to struggle against the usual legacies of racism, patronization and discrimination.



Again, these happened despite, or struggling against, the indifferent to comtemptuous to oppressive to outright lethal background of racism, and many of the items on your list were individual or collective struggles against injustices inflicted by the dominant American society to keep "darkie" in his place.

Certainly, there's a lot of individual courage and struggle and perseverance to be proud of, but that's a cultural and social legacy for American blacks, not a historic or social legacy of the country which inflicted so much injustice on their ancestors.



Carver used to hang around here somewhere, if he's not a poser or DL, but he thinks I'm a redneck *******.

I would suggest that black achievements in the US are also part of american history, and some are uniquely american phenomena. I think the relevant thing is how blacks view them, as part of american pridely or ethnic pride, and thats why id like to see an african american comment. I also suspect from my interactions with african americans that they have pride in the larger achievements of the USA, but id rather not speak for them.


As for abolotionist being a small minority, well so were Continental Soldiers in 1776. Yet we take pride in them nonetheless, and ignore the fence sitters and lukewarm loyalists (the diehard loyalists ARE honored, just on the other side of the 49th parallel) Did they attack something that never should have existed? So, thats often what heroism is.

[MrFun]

I agree with you, lord of the mark. African-American achievements and African-American leaders have always been part of American history.

But let's not focus exclusively on the 54th -- blacks had served in the army and navy since the American Revolution.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, Scalawags were collaborators with the Union occupation.

Were there any pre-war unionists who didnt become scalawags? nonetheless i think youre right it was a post war term.

Pre-war unionists, who included many prominent planters, were called, AFAIK, just unionists. as opposed to "fireeaters". Wartime unionists, like the East Tennessee mountaineers, were just called traitors, i think (in the south that is).


Copperhead however was a term applied to the northern peace camp. In contrast to butternut, which is a more "ethnic" term, copperhead was a political term

as in "That copperhead Vallandigham got most of his votes in the butternut counties near the Ohio river"

[chequita guevara]

I'm gonna have to check my notes.

However, I think it unlikely that Notherners would refer to people by the name of a snake only found in the deep South.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I'm gonna have to check my notes.

However, I think it unlikely that Notherners would refer to people by the name of a snake only found in the deep South.

'The northern copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen) is the most widely distributed and locally abundant of Pennsylvania's three native venomous snake species. The timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus horridus) and eastern massasauga rattlesnake (Sistrurus catenatus catenatus) are the other two. Copperheads belong to the taxonomic genus Agkistrodon, which includes both Old World and New World species. In North America, there are three species and five subspecies of copperheads. They are widely distributed from Mexico north into the central U.S. and in the east from the tip of Florida to the New England states. The various subspecies display different physical attributes that are usually reflected in the width of the hourglass-like banding patterns on the body. In Pennsylvania, copperheads are found in appropriate habitat in all but the upper portions of the northern tier counties and the extreme northwestern counties. The limit of the copperhead's range in Pennsylvania for the most part coincides with the southern limit of glacial activity. They occur in remote wilderness areas in addition to suburban and sometimes urban areas. '