Death to France!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. But nonetheless wearing large crosses was allowed - is this not true?

No, it isn't! I have never seen people wearing large crosses when I was in the Public School and I don't think it would have been allowed.

2. BTW you are incorrect about a continuous lay status since 1789 - in fact of course your republic is not continuous since 1789 - the first empire had a concordat with the papacy, France under the Bourbon restoration was definitely Catholic, even the Third Republic was IIUC continued Catholic control of the schools for some years - the laic status quo wasnt really established till 1905, IIUC.

I have never talked about a continuous lay status since 1789, I only said that the principle of a laic status was dating back from 1789. As far as I am concerned I am not considering monarchies and other empires as exemplary form of governments.

About the third republic it seems you have more knowledge about the subject than I do. What is important is that the control of the Republic over the Public School was reestablished. After such a thing it is no wonder they have experienced the need to formalize the laic status of the Republic in 1905.

Now, don't tell me that the laws enacted in 1905 were directed at the muslims...

[Ned]

Spiffor, bras were imposed on native cultures due to Christianity. Should bras be banned?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Spiffor, bras were imposed on native cultures due to Christianity. Should bras be banned?

I can't wait

But in all seriousness, nobody links bras with religion here. Whereas almost everybody links scarves with religion, which makes the scarf a religious symbol, unlike bras.
That's precisely why you'd get the same trouble if you wore a swastika in a public school. In France, the Swastica is linked with nazism, and you'd have to be very convincing to have it passed for a symbol of peace and harmony.

[Ned]

Spiffor, assume there was a court case about whether some item or clothing or manner of dress was "religious." What is the legal standard? The perceptions of the French people or intent of the wearer?

Suppose, for example, it again becomes fashionable in the US for American women to wear scarves. Would they have to remove them in French schools although there is nothing religious about the scarf to the American?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Ned
Suppose, for example, it again becomes fashionable in the US for American women to wear scarves. Would they have to remove them in French schools although there is nothing religious about the scarf to the American?

Have a better look at the pictures coming from the muslim world and you will see that the way the jihab is weared has nothing to do with the way the scarves were weared when they were fashionable.

[notyoueither]

I have known more than one muslim woman who was not devout (if that's the right word). They would occassionally wear the hijab as a part of their fashion. For them it was cultural. [Actually, usually much looser than seen in many pictures.]

[Ned]

Tamerlin, perhaps. But you are not addressing the issue.

Scarves are universal dress for women. If a woman who is not a Muslim wants to wear one, can she?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Ned
Scarves are universal dress for women. If a woman who is not a Muslim wants to wear one, can she?

Yes, she would have the right to wear it outside or in the halls of the school. But she would nonetheless have to remove it once she will be in the classroom as it is the custom in European countries to remove headdresses when you enter a room, it is not polite to keep them. As the teachers are asking the boys to remove their cap, they have to ask the girls to remove their scarf... Equality.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

About the third republic it seems you have more knowledge about the subject than I do.

And an ignorant American, who's read ONE - thats right ONE book on the 3rd republic, and never managed to get past Ferry and Gambetta (though i did skim ahead on some of the religious stuff)

Maybe the French public schools have some issues more serious than headscarves?

[Ned]

Lord of the Mark, it is clear that we Americans do not fully understand the French, and maybe, the European need for cultural uniformity. The French seem to be more afflicted with this need than any other European culture. It exists in Quebec as well.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

And an ignorant American, who's read ONE - thats right ONE book on the 3rd republic, and never managed to get past Ferry and Gambetta (though i did skim ahead on some of the religious stuff)

I have a book about the Third Republic but I am yet to read it...

Maybe the French public schools have some issues more serious than headscarves?

The institutions of the Third Republic are certainly those I know the least well though I am found of the era. Imagine that from 1871 to 1940, the Third Republic experienced the Victorian age (the great colonial empires), the first World War, the roaring twenties (a great age of exploration and discovery) and the second World War... it was certainly too much for a single Republic.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Spiffor, assume there was a court case about whether some item or clothing or manner of dress was "religious." What is the legal standard? The perceptions of the French people or intent of the wearer?

The very reason why we're heading to a new law, despite having already adopted laws in the past, is that there is a huge "grey zone" on to what symbol should be admitted or not, and on to what to do with wearers of banned symbols.

The new law does nothing more than giving details, and to name precisely what is banned: headscarves, skullcaps, and "unreasonably large" crosses.

[chequita guevara]

I guess I know what the new punk rock fashion is gonna be.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Ned
Lord of the Mark, it is clear that we Americans do not fully understand the French, and maybe, the European need for cultural uniformity. The French seem to be more afflicted with this need than any other European culture. It exists in Quebec as well.

This has nothing to do with cultural uniformity, I really wonder how you can say this from the debate that we have attempted to held here... wouldn't it be one of your new and many preconceived ideas about the evil french people who have dared to disagree with your country about a well known subject.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


Yes, she would have the right to wear it outside or in the halls of the school. But she would nonetheless have to remove it once she will be in the classroom as it is the custom in European countries to remove headdresses when you enter a room, it is not polite to keep them. As the teachers are asking the boys to remove their cap, they have to ask the girls to remove their scarf... Equality.

wait a miunte - i thought someone said that Jewish boys, who wont be allowed to wear skull caps, WOULD be allowed to wear less obviously religious head coverings such as baseball caps - is this not the case?