Death to France!

[Ned]

Spiffor, when I was growing up, all girls and women wore scarves when going outside, and had to wear them or some hat when going into Church. I also half recall some French movies, maybe older ones, where French girls wore scarves when going out.

Perhaps this practice has subsided in both countries when the Church changed the rule about head coverings for women in churches.

Even if it is not the fashion today, it once was - and not that long ago.

[Mazarin]

one more headscarf thread

Ned, it actually isn't that difficult...there are two principles that the French Republic is built upon: freedom of religion and strict separation between state and religion which many feel is necessary to enable the first. They might be opposite in this case, so a ruling needs to be made; it is fully understandable if you'd take a different decision, but phrases like

How is France any better than China when it will jail people or deny them fundamental rights for exercising religion?

are as appropriate as Oncle B's comparisons between Nazi Germany and the US.
I have already made the point that many Islam experts consider the headscarf to rather be a political symbol of extreme islamism than a piece of clothing required by religion and that freedom of speech as well as freedom of religion are not absolute rights that can be excercised even when violating other laws. You are free to disagree, but it wouldn't hurt your point if you refrained from the bs I quoted above.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Would the problems come from catholics it would not change at all my opinion.

Actually, if the problems came from the catholics, I would even be emboldened , because we don't have a problem with integrating catholics in our society (a concern about which I think this law is conter-productive)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Even if it is not the fashion today, it once was - and not that long ago.

I know it, and that's precisely why I'm glad to see it gone. When I tell my elders that it's not a Muslim-only thing, as the Christians forced girls to do so in recent past (heck, my believing grandmother still wears a scarf when outside to this day), and as the Jewish women are still supposed to hide their hair after marriage -although most women who do it choose to wear fake hair on top of their genuine ones.

But the point is such practices are religious displays. And these displays are not to be accepted in public schools, because the French tradition deems them as being disruptive to the proper education of influencable youth.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, this story is not the first time the radical differences between France and Iran spice up the diplomatic game. I remember recently, when an Iranian leader (I guess it was Khatami) paid a visit to France, he was warmly welcome.
But the talks completely failed because the Iranian demanded that there was no wine on the table during the diplomatic dinners. Such a breach to French protocol could not be tolerated, and the trip ended up being much shorter than expected

[Tamerlin]

Your avatar is as funny as Spiffor's quote skywalker...

[DanS]

What's the deal? Do you believe Chirac opposed Bush, Rumsfeld & Co wrt Iraq to kiss Muslim ass or not? You're contradicting yourself from one post to another.

No I'm not. Chirac is an opportunist. He opposed it all to kiss a whole lot of ass besides, only a portion of which was muslim ass. Kissing muslim ass was more than a bonus for him, but less than the causality that you ascribe to my argument.

Anyway, this ass kissing was apparently not very effective for him. He was feted across the ME before the war, but where's the love nowadays?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
BTW, I'm wondering if Iran allows students to wear crucifixes in its schools.

Yes, but the student in question has to be nailed to it.

[TCO]

When in France, do as the French. When in Iran, do as the Persians.

[Ned]

What is a pity here is that France still seems traumatized by the circumstances of its revolution. Little Muslim girls wearing scarves are no threat to anyone, let alone French independence from its former Monarchy or the Pope.

[notyoueither]

They seem to be standing on a principle, Ned. Their principle of equality seems to be being placed slightly higher than that of liberty in this case.

Americans would probably order those differently, as would some others, but neither of us has to live in France.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Ned
What is a pity here is that France still seems traumatized by the circumstances of its revolution. Little Muslim girls wearing scarves are no threat to anyone, let alone French independence from its former Monarchy or the Pope.

Ned, I am afraid you are not ready to discuss anything. You have started to post in this thread with preconceived ideas and you are not ready to hear what we have to say. And that is a pity.

Little muslim girls wearing scarves in the public schools are a threat to an essential principle of the French Republic. But the problem is much deeper than it seems, France can't allow some people to reject some aspects of the law because of their religion. This would open the door to many other problems...

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by notyoueither
They seem to be standing on a principle, Ned. Their principle of equality seems to be being placed slightly higher than that of liberty in this case.

I don't think one of these principles is placed higher than the other but rather that the writers of our Constitution considered that there can be no Liberty without Equality. And I agree with them...

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Because there is a strong disagreement about it among the Muslim intellectuals, and the pro-scarf people seem not to justify it by the Quran (the message of God spoken by Mohammed), but by the Haddiths (Muhammed's own quotes that haven't been inspired by God)

First Islam isnot orginise like Christian religion with one man at top like Pope who make religious ruleing. No religious ruleing is blind on any Muslum anywhere. First Muslum read the ruleing careful to see it if is valid from the Quran , then what the Founder of Islam said or did about it and then common sense and how other system deal with the issue. Than ruleing by one Imam have no meaning in the widerly Muslum world unless than huge amount of other Imam's and religious sholar's agree with me. In fact than Imam who doesnot like one Iman doesnot have to read his ruleing at all.
There two excetion all Imam of Islam must read the ruleing of the Head Imam of Mecca and the Head Imam of Caico Univerity in Egpy as they are recognite as being Religious leader in a limit sense.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Sikander


Yes, but the student in question has to be nailed to it.

You are wrong on this. Christian in Iran are a protected religion in Islam. In the middle age muslum ruler wrote to the pope about choices of who should be Bishop out of three local people an they ask the pope opion on this. Many time the pope wrote back pick whoever you want.