How do they explain western dominance in other world regions?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon


It advanced more rapidly than it did elsewhere. Weren't they the first to use cannon?

The Dark Ages were only dark in Western Europe if at all.

The Chinese were the first to use cannon; but the Islamic world saw the first production of grenades. In the 1930s, Danish archaeologists unearthed in Hama, Syria, a grenade workshop dating from the 13th Century, which did much to explain the egg or pear shaped ceramic objects scattered over a swathe of the Middle and Near East and dating from before the 13th Century- they had 'glory' or the name of Allah inscribed or painted on them. The Arab trading networks passed knowledge of them through Iran and the oasis cities on the Silk Road and a sculpture in a Buddhist cave at Ta-tsu in Sichuan shows two demons, one wielding a handgun, the other a grenade with a burning fuse.

I think it's worth noting that the Arabs did not merely preserve the theoretical knowledge of the Greeks and the engineering skills of the Romans- in some instances they improved upon them. Of course, their access to trade with India and China was invaluable in this respect.

As regards the Church of Rome being favourable or antipathetic to learning and discovery, it could be both.
St Augustine wrote:

'Whatever knowledge man has acquired outside Holy Writ, if it be harmful, it is there condemned; if it be wholesome, it is there contained.'

Even though this outlook on experimentation and the acquisition of knowledge played a part in stunting the fostering of learning in parts of the West, many of the ablest thinkers and inventors were churchmen, as for a several centuries the church was the only pan-European organisation.

As for Western Europe being uncivilized or unproductive of anything worthwhile between the 7th and 13th centuries, I think you're overegging the pudding somewhat, but it certainly is instructive as an antidote to inflated notions of linear Western progression to realize that for nearly six centuries, Indian, Chinese and Islamic mathematics far outstripped Western European mathematics.

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Al-Khwarizmi.html

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Bhaskara_II.html

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Chu.html

[Heresson]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Agathon
They were freely available. If you mean got them by conquering most of the Byzantine Empire, then you are right. Same goes for the Romans. Sulla famously took all Aristotle's books back to Rome.
[quote]

And...?
The point was that Muslims were giving back to Christians what they earlier have learned from them - and, of course, also their own continuations of this work. But if not them, all this knowledge would have been available anyway through Byzantines.

Blah blah...

It's a fact that for most of the period between the fall of the Western Empire and the Italian Renaissance, most classical learning was in the hands of the Islamic World. The greatest philosophers and mathematicians of the age were Islamic or (for example Maimonides) influenced by or active in the Muslim world.

The twelfth century renaissance is due in part to the rediscovery of Aristotle by the West. (...)

Read carefully. I didn't argue THIS. I just wrote that it weren't crusades in Egypt or Syria that got Christians interested in Muslim knowledge. I questioned the time and place, not the process. Nothing more than that.
And in fact, by recalling Maimonides, You actually admit I'm right

That doesn't change the fact of where we got them from.

Of course. But there's a slight difference between inventing something and transmitting it further, isn't there.

During the period from 1450-1920. You must be crazy. The Ottoman Empire was one of the major powers of WWI. It's not like they were minnows like NZ or Australia.

Actually it depends on what do we mean by a major power. Ottomans were still a big state up to their fall,
but they were dependant on one or other European state when it comes to their safety and their progress. They had hardly any influence on what's happening in some their provinces like Egypt or Iraq. If not help of the West, they'd have been conquered by their vassal Muhammad Ali. Oh, c-mon. XVIII and XIX centuries weren't the times of Ottoman glory.

[quote]
This thread smacks of ignorant people thinly trying to disguise their anti-Muslim prejudices by selectively ignoring history.
[/quote[

And by people who don't read, or do not understand, somebody else's posts and then are acting rude.

It's a fact. From about AD 650 to AD 1200 and probably further on, Western Europe was an uncivilized cultural backwater possessing fragments of Classical learning and unproductive of anything worthwhile until Aquinas. During this time Islam was arguably the major civilization on the planet. You can't change facts just because you don't like towel heads.

I have a strange need of insulting You for acting this way, but let's put it this way; You're fighting against mills. I did not argue the things You've just written! You are so keen on defending the Muslim glory that You don't seem to notice no-one's attacking it.

[Saras]

Originally posted by molly bloom


The Chinese were the first to use cannon; but the Islamic world saw the first production of grenades. In the 1930s, Danish archaeologists unearthed in Hama, Syria, a grenade workshop dating from the 13th Century, which did much to explain the egg or pear shaped ceramic objects scattered over a swathe of the Middle and Near East and dating from before the 13th Century- they had 'glory' or the name of Allah inscribed or painted on them. The Arab trading networks passed knowledge of them through Iran and the oasis cities on the Silk Road and a sculpture in a Buddhist cave at Ta-tsu in Sichuan shows two demons, one wielding a handgun, the other a grenade with a burning fuse.

Wow, they actually found the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Ned
...

This simply goes back to why Europe and the US dominate. Technology is the reason. But that leads to the question of why Europe developed technoloyg so fast when no one else on the globe did -- even with the printing press, empires, trade and laws.

No Ned. It's because we've lent the rest of the world billions, and wield the stick because we're the creditors and they are the debtors.

Debt repayments are 6 times higher than aid gifts (much of which IS military tech). Factor in the cash subsidies given to Western farmers, and it's easy to see why the rest of the world can't compete.

It's not technology, Ned. It's cash.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Saras


Wow, they actually found the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

[Saras]

Originally posted by BeBro

'A reading from the Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20: Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."'

[Saras]

Originally posted by Cruddy


No Ned. It's because we've lent the rest of the world billions, and wield the stick because we're the creditors and they are the debtors.

Debt repayments are 6 times higher than aid gifts (much of which IS military tech). Factor in the cash subsidies given to Western farmers, and it's easy to see why the rest of the world can't compete.

It's not technology, Ned. It's cash.

What a load of postcolonial pseudoguilt cack.

[Ned]

The geographical theory also does not work because it does not explain the complete collapse of civilization in Western Europe during the Dark Ages, and the rather backward civilization during the Middle Ages.

One can eliminate geography, the expansion of empires, trade, wealth, religion, classical knowledge, military competition and the printing press from the equation as well. Many societies throughout the ages had these but still did not advance technically at anything but a glacial pace.

However, where a patent system took root in such areas as in Germany (HRE) and England, and later the United States and Japan, technology advanced at a very brisk pace. It is technology that brought Europe (and later, the United States and Japan) their dominance of the world.

It is interesting that the civilization games that we play did not have to development of a patent system as critical. However, clearly patents are key to rapid technical advance.

[JohnT]

It is interesting that the civilization games that we play did not have to development of a patent system as critical. However, clearly patents are key to rapid technical advance.

I'm still shocked and awed about how Civ3 still didn't have a "printing press" advance.

[Kuciwalker]

Actually, it did

[JohnT]

It did?

Well, I did only play it once...

[Kuciwalker]

Ned, shut up with your idiocy, please, such as this:

The geographical theory also does not work because it does not explain the complete collapse of civilization in Western Europe during the Dark Ages, and the rather backward civilization during the Middle Ages.

You've read GGS, right? The collapse was caused by the collapse of the Roman empire. The collapse of the Roman empire is explained by the geographic theory. Need I explain further?

[Ned]

skywalker -- I have no idea what you are talking about. The question is why did Europe and later the United States in particular dominate? Explaining the collapse of civilization through geography does not demonstrate why European geography caused Europe to dominate. It proves the opposite.

European geography also does not explain why Germany, England, the US and Japan are the leading technological countries in the world.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Heresson

I have a strange need of insulting You for acting this way, but let's put it this way; You're fighting against mills. I did not argue the things You've just written! You are so keen on defending the Muslim glory that You don't seem to notice no-one's attacking it.

You need to take your own advice.

Notice that the comment was addressed to some people in this thread. Then read the thread. See...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Agathon


You need to take your own advice.

Notice that the comment was addressed to some people in this thread. Then read the thread. See...

Sorry then, but You gave me reasons for thinking it is adressed to me; earlier in the post, You did something similar, after "blah blah blah", and it was as a responce to a quote of mine post