Should the Rooskies NUKE Chechnia?

[The Vagabond]

There is no obvious solution for Russia here. What is going on is horrible, and there seems to be no way to settle this down. But pulling out could be even more horrible. Perhaps the Chechen war is the cross Russia has to bear in the foreseeable future in order to avert even greater disasters.

I believe the situation is pretty much similar to the war on terror. It can't be won in the near future, but it has to be waged permanently in order to keep the situation at least under some control.

[Ned]

The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists.

We are all in this war together and we need to support each other. I, of course, cannot speak for all Americans, but I believe most of us are on your side. It is true that the same people who oppose the war on terror or who side with the Palestinians in the ME are very unsympathetic to Russia's problems in Chechnya. But they are not in the majority here at least.

You have friends here. Hopefully we can be allies together in this struggle.

[Pekka]

Ned, not true. I strongly support the American effort and Iraq. Even before the war. And when it started.

However, I don't take sides on Russia vs Chechnya. It's not just Muslim terrorists vs Russia. It can't be compared to Israel vs. Palestine. It's unique, like every war and conflict is, but they can't be compared IMO. And after hearing what has happened in Chechnya, I think Russia also lost their moral high ground. So, that's why I think this is just one of those wars that never ends, and keeps the body count rising, endless amount of war crimes from both sides.

But like Vagabond said, I agree with him too kind of.. and I don't want to blame Russia for everything either. One thing I don't agree, is that Chechnya could be controlled by doing war. Not unless you kill every man over 14.

But.. we'll see.. I hope it ends soon. Sooner the better.

And this is where I think that Bush's with or against speech is dangerous. We can't lump all these together. We need to analyze them a lot, we need to separate them from each other, because they are unique conflicts.

[Pekka]

But I stress how strongly I am against terrorism and attacks that have happened in Russia. And without that terrorism part of the war, I'd say the only option for Russia is to pull out ASAP. But because that is in the picture.. I just don't know.. and that's why I'm not comfortable judging the ROoskies. So I just won't do that. So.. I won't take any sides. I do, however, take side against those terrorists that attacks Russia. THose I'm against 100% simple and pure, and I hope Rooskies can get them.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ned
The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists.

Were you 100% behind Serbia in the 90's?

[GePap]

A condensed, laymans hisotry of Chechnya since 1991:

In 1991 the USSR came to and end, and Chechnya ended up being part of the Russian federation..ex-military officer took over and ran the place autonomously for most of the next 3 years...but it kept getting mroe and more autonomous and lawless, so in 1994 the Russians move in. Very bloody battle for the capital grozny-the Russians bomb and shell the city indescriminately. move in with poorly trained motorrized internal security forces (not army) and they are embarrasingly kicked out after a few months of fighting. The Russians eventually gain control of most cities, but can;t put the thing down. In negotiations in 1996, the Russians agree to get out. Chechnya, by now full of wariors, Jihaddist, and whomever, becomes lawless..attempts are made from Chechnya to spread seccesionism to Dagestan and other neighboring provinces. In late 1999 a series of bombings in Moscow lead to the Russians coming back in, that and a chechen insurgency into Dagestan-. As people say, there is a bunch of conspiracy theories about whether the FSB did ti to get Russia back in.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Ned
The Vagabond, not so at all. I personally am 100% behind Russia in this as I recognize that Russia is under assault from Muslim extremists.

We are all in this war together and we need to support each other. I, of course, cannot speak for all Americans, but I believe most of us are on your side. It is true that the same people who oppose the war on terror or who side with the Palestinians in the ME are very unsympathetic to Russia's problems in Chechnya. But they are not in the majority here at least.

Ned, I would certainly trust you personally on this matter. Your personal position is consistent and honest. But this is precisely the point: it is your personal position. The position and actions of the US government (not to mention the Europeans) may well turn out quite different. At least you seem to recognize this yourself.

You have friends here. Hopefully we can be allies together in this struggle.

In principle, we are allies already. But unfortunately not unconditional allies, but rather allies that need to watch each other's backs.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Pekka
And after hearing what has happened in Chechnya, I think Russia also lost their moral high ground.

It would certainly be great to wage war as neatly as the Americans do in Iraq, to have Grozny surrendered just as Baghdad surrendered to the Americans. But the Russian Army is basically a wreck. Unfortunately we don't have any other army right now, and we have to do the fight that we have to do just with what we have.

[The Vagabond]

By the way, that was a rather accurate summary, GePap.

Well, actually except for this:

In 1991 the USSR came to and end, and Chechnya ended up being part of the Russian federation..

Chechnya was part of the Russian Federation already in the times of the USSR. It was never a "union-level" republic.

[Serb]

And it was never an independent state.

Pekka, we already withdrawn our forces from there once. Since 1996 up to 1999 there wasn't a single Russian soldier or cop. And guess what? They keep attacking Russia, keep to blow-up bombs at our streets, keep to blow-up our houses, keep to take hostages, keep to steal our citizens and turn them to slaves. And finally in 1999, they have started an expansion. They invaded neighbour Dagestan. It was a full scale invasion lead by so-called minister of defense of their so-called government. They attacked us in 1999, not the other way around. Their fault. Case is closed.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sava

Were you 100% behind Serbia in the 90's?

No, 110% behind Clinton.

[Pekka]

Serb, like I said, I don't take sides in this. I see your point, and don't try to claim otherwise to you. Only side I take is Russian side agains terrorists.


The Vagabond, yeah it's kind of in a bad state now.. I don't know if it's the lack of money or what though.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Azazel
Hey, I resent the first sentence.

We're getting blown with far lesser frequency that you Yanks do in Iraq, but I don't rub it in, do I?


Oh, and Yes they should.

Not on a per soldier basis you ain't, AFAIK.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by laurentius
CO your right. But remeber that Stalin wiped all the intellectual gene heritage out of russia. They are simply not capable of doing anything right

Holy ****, that's hilarious.

[DanS]

We need to analyze them a lot, we need to separate them from each other, because they are unique conflicts.

This isn't true in the fullest sense. The Chechens have been spreading pan-muslim jihad and receiving terrorist training in places such as Afghanistan. Further, there have been some Arab jihadists participating in the fighting. Lastly, there has been a lot of funding and support for the Chechens come through the organizations of the likes of al Qaeda. This is something more than loose affiliations but not quite a one organization show.

When the US sent the Taliban to the great sorting facility in the sky, we sent quite a few Arabs and Chechens as well. Russia had a respite in Chechnya because of this. We wiped out wholesale most of the jihadists from other Central Asia countries.