The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I was thinking it worked more as a play.

As long as Ming gets to be Tojo.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I am still amazed by how rosy your image of the US is. Is your country the new incarnation of Jesus or something?

He was being slightly sarcastic

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
AMERICA: Accept these terms.
JAPAN: Well, we have one condition...
AMERICA: No.

BOOM!

AMERICA: Now, accept these terms.
JAPAN: Alright, we accept.
AMERICA: Great. Oh, and since we're feeling generous, you can keep your Emperor.

I love it

[Ned]

Are we talking apples and oranges here? The very surrender document states that the Emperor and the government of Japan continue to rule subject to the authority of MacArthur. This is not inconsistent with the surrender being unconditional in all other respects.

[notyoueither]

Well, Ned, you are the first. Maybe you should write a book. It would be ground breaking.

Now, what about the constitution being imposed by MacArthur, and the fact that an Emperor did not have to be included in that?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was thinking it worked more as a play.

What's the 2nd act?

The very surrender document states that the Emperor and the government of Japan continue to rule subject to the authority of MacArthur.

Which is an unconditional surrender.... the government of Japan is totally subject to the authority of the victorious state. Like you said, they rule subject to the authority of MacArthur, which means that he could have abolished the Emperor.

[Ted Striker]

I'd say displaying something that has had one of the most dramatic effects on the history of mankind should be displayed. Like in a museum.

That's what they are for.

DUH

Secondly the bomb saved millions of lives on both sides

Thirdly those protesters should be ASHAMED of themselves for acting like that. When you're the aggressor you have ZERO right to complain. PERIOD

DUH

[Ned]

First?

Read this:

"The second reason for our near universal misunderstanding of the twin nuclear holocausts stems from an equally human, but more socially harmful motivation. We have been collectively blocked from a critical understanding of the A-bombings because of a lack of public criticism in the face of a powerful and purposeful historical misrepresentation that began with President Harry Truman in the years following 1945 and is only ending now, albeit very slowly.

The ongoing declassification of U.S. government documents and officials' diaries have fairly recently revealed evidence that the history lessons that we were taught after the end of the Pacific War were false. To wit:

The Joint Chiefs of Staff and every other high military official, as well as all Truman's key advisers, save one, were against the use of the A-bombs against the Japanese. Many were particularly concerned about the impact to America's moral stature for using bombs that they considered barbaric, especially upon a nation that they knew was beaten. After all, the U.S. military had already gained complete domination of Japanese airspace and waterways. They were simply waiting for the terms of surrender to be formulated between the U.S. and Japanese governments.

Truman repeatedly delayed acceptance of the Japanese government's conditional surrender attempts until after both types of A-bomb had been used.

Truman's physical target for the A-bombs were the Japanese, but the political target was his ally, but ideological opposite, Joseph Stalin.

Hiroshima's city center was targeted because its high population and building density would maximally display to the Soviets the killing and destructive power of America's new weapon.

The deciding factors for the Japanese government's capitulation were the entry of the Soviet Union into the Pacific War coupled with America's post-bombing acceptance of conditional surrender.

The story of a million American lives (and many more Japanese lives) saved by the A-bombs was a complete fabrication designed to eliminate public criticism of the president's decision.

Thus, the twin destructive forces of "Fat Man" and "Little Boy" were of political, but not military, utility. In other words, the nuclear holocausts were used for the purpose of "atomic diplomacy" with the Soviets rather than to bring a swift end to the war."

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0806-05.htm

[Ned]

Here's another take on the fact that the surrender was conditional:

"Considering the Japanese only agreed to the CONDITIONAL
SURRENDER by one vote after the second atomic bomb, belies the view that the Japanese were earnestly seeking conditional surrender as long as they could keep the Emperor. The Japanese made this offer for the first time after the Second bomb was dropped and the US accepted these terms without long delay."

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/milhst-l/19981101.mil/msg00031.html

[Ned]

From the Encylopedia Britannica

The Japanese surrender offer that reached Washington on August 10 requested the retention of the emperor. Truman's response granted that request (though the emperor would be subject to the authority of the supreme commander of the Allied occupation forces), thereby partially modifying America's original demand for “unconditional surrender.”

[Ned]

Here is advice by the Joint Chiefs to accept Japan's surrender conditioned on retention of the Emperor. This advice was made on July 6, prior to the bombs.

"The ideas of foreign occupation of the Japanese homeland, foreign custody of the person of the Emperor, and the loss of prestige entailed by the acceptance of `unconditional surrender' are most revolting to the Japanese. To avoid these conditions, IF POSSIBLE, and, IN ANY EVENT, to insure the survival of the institution of the Emperor, the Japanese might well be willing to withdraw from all the territory they have seized on the Asiatic continent and in the southern Pacific, and even to agree to the independence of Korea and to the practical disarmament of their military forces. A conditional surrender by the Japanese government along the lines stated above might be offered by them at any time from now until the time of the complete destruction of all Japanese power of resistance." [Emphasis added. 8 July 1945, "Estimate of the Enemy Situation (as of 6 July 1945). Reported by the Combined Intelligence Committee." C.C.S. 643/3]"

[notyoueither]

That is interesting, Ned. However, I will have to see you about it tomorrow

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ned
Here's another take on the fact that the surrender was conditional:

"Considering the Japanese only agreed to the CONDITIONAL
SURRENDER by one vote after the second atomic bomb, belies the view that the Japanese were earnestly seeking conditional surrender as long as they could keep the Emperor. The Japanese made this offer for the first time after the Second bomb was dropped and the US accepted these terms without long delay."

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/mi.../msg00031.html

I will say, that is a freekin' message board archive. That would be like quoting Sava to establish the validity of your claim.

Come on, Ned...

[Ned]

Another rendition that illustrates that the sequence was this

1) offer to surrender but keep the Emperor;
2) Potsdam declaration that was silent on the status of Emperor;
3) two atom bombs dropped;
4) Japans acceptance of Potsdam, but subject to keeping the Emperor;
5) Truman's acceptance, but subject to Allies during occupation;
6) Japan acceptions of Truman's condition.

"Clearly the time to surrender had come. Incredibly, many in the military wanted to fight on, preferring death to capitulation. The cabinet, made up of elder statesmen, tried to send out peace feelers through neutral Sweden, Soviet Union, and Switzerland as early as June 1945. The only condition was the continued existence of the of Imperial Throne. Unwilling or unclear of the Japanese offer, the Allies refused and issued the Potsdam Declaration on July 26th.

The Emperor was sympathetic to the peacemakers. The Army members of the cabinet were not willing to give up, and Prime Minister Suzuki had to move carefully. If there was a perceived weakness in the cabinet, even the Emperor might be assassinated. The idea that the Emperor would support surrender was inconceivable to many in both the Army and the Navy. Suzuki cautiously sought out others on the cabinet, finding all but two generals in support. On July 28, the government issued a carefully worded response to the Potsdam Declaration, which unfortunately used a word with a double meaning. English-language broadcasts used the word "ignore" and the Western press picked up that sentiment. Truman announced he had rejected the peace offer and dropped the atomic bombs.

The Emperor ordered a surrender document be sent accepting the Potsdam declaration. Through Swiss channels, it was sent to the United States, but it added that the Emperor must be left on the Imperial Throne. The Allies replied that the Emperor would be subject to the Allied Occupation Commander."

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/japansurrender.htm

[Ned]

The following,

"We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."

from the Potsdam declaration called for the unconditional surrender of the armed forces, a change from the Cairo declaration that called for an unconditional surrender of Japan.

The Japanese acceptance of Potsdam did not require it to remove the emperor. Even the "reply" by Truman to the condition was interpreted by the Japanase an not requiring removal of the Emperor. Otherwise, the war would have continued.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hando/hando.htm