The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever.

[Ned]

Boris, the surrender was conditioned on the maintenance of the Emperor. While under the occupation, it was clear that the Emperor had to take orders from McArthur. But after the occupation, it was also clear that he would again be the sovereign to the same extent as the British monarch.

I am very sure that you would agree that if the United States removed the Emperor from power and abolished the monarchy, it would've been a violation of the surrender terms.

With this being the only condition, the surrender of Japan was otherwise unconditional and fully met the terms of the Potsdam declaration.

[notyoueither]

have a read, Ned.

Signed at Tokyo Bay, September 2, 1945

We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated.
We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.
We hereby command the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.
We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.
We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed.
The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender.
Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER 1945.

http://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/etc/c05.html

I don't see it mentioning the emperor staying, do you?

[Agathon]

This must be the longest and most bitter thread on a museum exhibit ever.

[notyoueither]

You're such a troll.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You're such a troll.

I gave up a while back. The posts were flying too thick and fast for me.

[Ned]

NYE, Not there, but in the earlier correspondence.

[notyoueither]

Ned, that is the document they signed. You are a lawyer, are you not?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Ned
Perhaps we ought to "share" the plane with the Japanese. They can display it in Hiroshima and make any kind of statements they please about it.

That would be fair.

1) It isn't their plane. They are very capable of building a replica if they see fit.

2) The Atomic Bomb Museum in Hiroshima makes quite a statement about the bomb and the war without a plane replica. If you think they need a plane to make the kind of statements they are trying to make, you're missing the point.

[Ned]

OK, NYE, let's parse this.

"We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated.
We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction."

"We" means the Emperor and the goverment acting under his orders.

The Emperor does not surrender. He instead orders the surrender the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, etc. Only that surrender is deemed "unconditional."

[Ned]

C, but the emotional impact of actually seeing the plane that dropped the bomb would be tremendous. Let's give the plane to the Japanese especially since that plane represents something that the United States should not be proud of.

[notyoueither]

"We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam...

We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.

...

We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.

...

The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender."

And, subsequent to that, MacCarthur forced a new constitution on Japan, the requirement that there be an Emperor not being a requirement for that constitution. The fact that MacCarther was either wise enough or fool enough to leave a figure head on the throne detracts nothing from the fact that Imperial Japan capitulated unconditionally in 1945.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Ned
C, but the emotional impact of actually seeing the plane that dropped the bomb would be tremendous. Let's give the plane to the Japanese especially since that plane represents something that the United States should not be proud of.

Granted, and if the Japanese government really wants it, I see no problem in reaching an agreement. My point is that, given the focus of the Atomic Bomb Museum, they don't really need the plane. The impact of that place is something beyond anything else I've ever felt at a memorial, and I couldn't even read everything that was there. It is not neccessary to have the plane, and in a way I feel it would be cheapened by such trivial artifacts: "this is the plane that dropped the bomb." It doesn't exactly illustrate human suffering or tradgedy.

[Boris Godunov]

Jesus, Ned, now you're really grasping at straws.

AMERICA: Accept these terms.
JAPAN: Well, we have one condition...
AMERICA: No.

BOOM!

AMERICA: Now, accept these terms.
JAPAN: Alright, we accept.
AMERICA: Great. Oh, and since we're feeling generous, you can keep your Emperor.

That is STILL an unconditional surrender, as the U.S. NEVER accepted the Japanese condition. The Americans said it was unconditional surrender. Japan signed a document saying it was an unconditional surrender. You're about the only person in the ENTIRE WORLD who is claiming it wasn't an unconditional surrender.

To put it even more simply, let's say we're at war. I say you have to surrender to me and accept whatever terms I want. You say you'll except anything accept item X. I say, no dice. Accept it all. You say okay. But then, after the fact, I decide to let you have item X anyway. Your surrender was still unconditional, your gaining item X was purely through my generousnes after your surrender. It does not, after the fact, change the surrender to a conditional one.

The correspondence I cited shows, point blank, that Japans condition was rejected by the U.S. They told them to accept the Potsdam terms in toto or the war went on. It was only when Japan accepted the Potsdam terms, with no other conditions, that the surrender was accepted.

[Agathon]

AMERICA: Accept these terms.
JAPAN: Well, we have one condition...
AMERICA: No.

BOOM!

AMERICA: Now, accept these conditions.
JAPAN: Alright, we accept.
AMERICA: Great. Oh, and since we're feeling generous, you can keep your Emperor

Ever thought of writing a historical novel?

[Boris Godunov]

I was thinking it worked more as a play.