EU summit a failure after talks break down

[Gangerolf]

Spiffor, I agree (despite the very condescending nature of your post). That's a very good idea (resurrecting the eec)
On the other hand, do the people of eg Germany and France actually want a federation?

[Spiffor]

VetLegion:
I don't think it'll happen, but stay in tough with the Yanks or the Russians. I'm sure a war in the Balkans will come in handy, somtime in the future, for whomever in place to get reelected

[Bereta_Eder]

I think american and european integration processes are like comparing eggs and elephants

[Monk]

Vetlegion,

So neither the fact that Romania is poor today or Denmark is rich today is because of their own choosing.

I'm quite aware of that and nowhere have I stated Romania isn't worthy of some assistance. Speaking of Denmark, it has been in the very top of foreign aid providers even after recent cuts which is OK with me. However, it doesn't logically follow from Romania's tough luck that we should necessarily share constitution, borders, currency, immigration policy, markets, legislation, economy and parlament with them any time soon.

[Bereta_Eder]

Nah, its not failure about some cheap ass votes, its difference of opinion about those who are in favor and against integration.

I rather be in a mega federated EU. My demonic plans will be more easily feasable.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
On the other hand, do the people of eg Germany and France actually want a federation?

Some do, some don't. But most don't know.

The real problem with Europe is that it's complicated, there is nearly no information about it except when the politicians use it as a convenient scapegoat. However, most people know the idea of Europe is good, as nobody wants to see again the bloodbathes of the past. The EU of today is very impopular.

Actually, there are many uninformed people who don't have an opinion; uninformed people who are hostile to the EU altogether; uninformed people for a federation, out of sympathy for the "union makes stronger" cause, or for the "we're at peace at last" cause; informed people against a federal EU; informed people for a federal EU.

I heard the rumor that a poll gave 70% YES to the constitution project in France. Since it's obvious nearly nobody read the constitution, it seems to show there is a deep sympathy for the idea of letting Europe progress.
Besides, Chirac has announced numerous blendings with Germany (such as having a common Franco-German nationality and ID in the future) without any significant outcry. Lastly, the Euro had no problem being accepted.

All in all, I think sympathy for Europe is important, and the sovereignty doesn't seem to be so much an issue from my glimpses into public opinion.

As to say whether the French in general want a federation or to continue today's system. I believe the huge majority wouldn't even understand the question, because all of this is too abstract. However, I feel that most people think today's EU is stuck and must change.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by paiktis22
I rather be in a mega federated EU. My demonic plans will be more easily feasable.

HEY! Those are MY evil plans !

[Bereta_Eder]

I dont see more than 3 MS complaining. i see a 12 euro zone being made, i see determination to push forward and let the oterhs drag their feet.

i doubt there's a problem. and i suspect that was france's doing (FRANCE'S DOING!!!!) to have the talks collapse, so to go on with the plan of core 1st speed integration countries and the rest the drageurs.
It takes time to do that, about 1 year

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Spiffor


HEY! Those are MY evil plans !

You can be my demonic archangel if you want!
But the antichrist has got to be me. i have the best avatar

[Gangerolf]

Spiffor, I take it your not a big fan of referenda?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Spiffor
As to say whether the French in general want a federation or to continue today's system. I believe the huge majority wouldn't even understand the question, because all of this is too abstract. However, I feel that most people think today's EU is stuck and must change.

Yep, good point about understanding the question. For the outsiders (not-yet-members) the question is clear - just get in at any price and as fast as possible, federation schmederation, we don't care

Speaking from one of those countries I can say that primary goal of our foreign policy is to get into EU. As to why, how and such trivia, it is not discussed much. And what after that, we also don't know.

There is a strong impression in the people that EU is a good thing, but few know what EU really is. I am fairly interested (well, more than the average Croat) and I still don't understand half of the deal.

But it doesn't matter, if it goes down in flames, lets all do it together (more fun that way)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by paiktis22
You can be my demonic archangel if you want!
But the antichrist has got to be me. i have the best avatar

Rats, I didn't think about that.

[DanS]

Since it's obvious nearly nobody read the constitution

Too damn long and convoluted!

[Monk]

We don't know if the peoples of France and Germany want a federation, because it's very important for the development of a strong union that we don't actually ask the people what they want. We'll lose valuable time if we resort to democracy and people somehow get it wrong, even if they might say yes the second or the third time we ask them within the same decade.

Spiffor, it seems to me that you're saying there's been a major shift of opinion since half the French population rejected Maastricht the one time somebody bothered to ask?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Spiffor, I take it your not a big fan of referenda?

I am a big fan of referenda. I think it is the best way to take important decisions in a democracy.

Actually, I'd LOVE that the governments would shut up, and that a Europe-wide referendum was taken, on whether the people of Europe accept or reject the constitution. But sadly it won't happen.

But even though I like referenda, it doesn't make it any less clear that people are widely uninformed about the EU. Heck, I'm almost done in my studies of political sciences, with a significant knowledge and serious interest for Europe, and even I didn't read the constitution entirely (only the 60 first pages on the ~260).
Of course, if a referendum was held, the campaign would make people aware of the general consequences of a YES or NO vote. But for now, the immense majority of people are having uninformed feelings about the issue. Those feelings seem to be rather sympathetic to Europe (which goes in my way), but they're uninformed nonetheless.