Vilification is over the top

[Arrian]

Luv ya, big guy.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
Ok, Boris has a good point with that.


But how can you lump ALL extremist positions today, as possibily becoming reasonable in the foreseeable future??

Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country.

My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth. It's a sad, sad, world we live in where the truth is considered extreme.

[Arrian]

My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth.

...

I'm doing the trolling here, thank you very much.

Yes, yes you are.

[chequita guevara]

It's sad I had to spell it out, isn't it.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country.

My extremisim, however, is based on science, and empirical fact, and logic, and history, i.e., on the truth. It's a sad, sad, world we live in where the truth is considered extreme.

Let's look at other examples of extremist ideology.

There is one sect of extreme feminists who do not represent mainstream feminism. These extremists equate marriage with prostitution.

Do you honestly think that in the foreseeable future, this will eventually become integrated in moderate, mainstream societal values??

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
Do you honestly think that in the foreseeable future, this will eventually become integrated in moderate, mainstream societal values??

No, but stranger things have happened. It's considered reasonable to have a giant invisible friend in the sky telling you how to live your life. That's definately an extremist position if I ever heard one, so maybe one day marriage will be considered prostitution. Course, the latter has slightly more basis in fact than the former, even if it doesn't tell the whole story.

[GePap]

I find blackice's original post sad. people who villify should have the guts to be villified. Yet again the debate on gay rights has been rather one sided-but how could it not.

As for moderation-Che is correct that moderation is a utterly subjective term-just like the term "sanity"- the position held by the largest group is treated as "sane"-the further you go fromt his, the more "insane" you are. of course, since majorities don't create truth but meanings, the truth can certainly be extreme and "insane".

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Look at conservatism. Barry Goldwater was considered a dangerous extremist in 1964. They were right, but today he is the modern father of the Republican Party. Today, his dangerous extremism is considered reasonable by many in this sad country.

Goldwater is considered too liberal by a good portion of the Republican Party today. This isn't something you'd find in most bastions of Republicanism these days:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/barry-goldwater.html

[chequita guevara]

GePap gets it. Boris gets it. Arrian gets it too. And none of them are wrong.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by GePap
I find blackice's original post sad. people who villify should have the guts to be villified. Yet again the debate on gay rights has been rather one sided-but how could it not.

As for moderation-Che is correct that moderation is a utterly subjective term-just like the term "sanity"- the position held by the largest group is treated as "sane"-the further you go fromt his, the more "insane" you are. of course, since majorities don't create truth but meanings, the truth can certainly be extreme and "insane".

I agree that moderate positions and extreme positions can change with perceptions over a historical period of time.

So as a result, my moderate perceptions are based on contemporary biases of mainstream liberal-moderate positions on different issues that were either extreme in the past, or might be seen as extreme in some future period.


ok

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
. . .

ok

Alright, if you can handle that concept, then you should be able to understand then the truth is not relative to other people's positions, i.e., somewhere in the middle, but can be located at any point along a continum. The truth should b sought via science and logic and history, not by being moderate.

This is not to say that a moderate position may not be a correct one. However, it is not correct merely by virture of being moderate.

[Boris Godunov]

Why not just base your positions on each particular issue on rational thought and what you feel is morally the right thing to do?

[MrFun]

But moderation can use science, logic and history to reach towards truth -- and, since I understand how extreme positions can be seen as more truthful at some other time, I guess both, moderation or extremism can reach the truth through science, logic and history.

[GePap]

And this is where agreement between you and I comes to an end Che..what objective lessons can you draw from history? You would need a set point of reference to try to do that, but how do you chose such a point without being arbitrary?

Marx chose to believe man's identity comes from his eocnomic activity-I think that is wrong and I have some evidence for it (and surely you have some evidence for it)- at a certain point, one must chose a meaning to measure by, but meaning is subjectively created-and thus the porblem starts.

[chequita guevara]

You put the cart before the horse, Fun. I use science, logic, and history to find my position. That position may than be moderate, radical, or even, heavens!, conservative. The truth should dictate your positions. Your positions should not dictate what you think is the truth.