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  • Vilification is over the top

    Social conservatives are here, and not going away
    Vilification is over the top. If gay-marriage opponents are the fringe, then the fringe is mighty wide

    CHARLES W. MOORE

    For folks quick to accuse those who disagree with them of hatred and bigotry, left-liberals are awfully good at dishing out the name-calling and vituperation, as we've seen during the past week or so in the feeding frenzy of outrage-***-schadenfreude over former Canadian Alliance family-issues critic Larry Spencer's comments on homosexuality.

    Words like "homophobe," "redneck," "fringe extremist," "bigot" and "troglodyte" have thickened the air. The famously homosexual NDP MP Svend Robinson called not only Spencer, but the entire Alliance caucus, (and by implication anyone who opposes the gay political agenda) "Neanderthals."

    "It's a bit like picking up a rock and exposing the creatures underneath it to the sunlight and watching who scurries away," Robinson is quoted saying.

    This is nothing new. Earlier this fall, Tory MP Scott Brison, also gay, called his caucus colleague and former interim PC leader, Elsie Wayne, a "vile cow" for her negative critique of gay advocacy. NDP MP and former party leader Alexa McDonough accused Wayne of "spewing hatred," describing her views as "screaming intolerance."

    By contrast, you'll search in vain for any such outbursts of ad hominem contempt or condescension in Larry Spencer's remarks. Indeed, Spencer said that he would welcome Scott Brison as a caucus colleague. "He's a great guy and he's got a lot of great ideas. If he can live with us we can live with him."

    The liberal left jumped enthusiastically on any pretext to denounce the Canadian Alliance as a bunch of rabidly bigoted Western whackos, but at least three of the five current parliamentary parties have sitting MPs who vocally oppose the political gay rights program.

    The Tories have Wayne, for one, and the day after the Larry Spencer story broke, David Kilgour, Liberal MP for Edmonton Southeast and secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific region, told the Edmonton Journal that he opposes gay marriage in part because once the government makes same-sex marriage legal, it will have no logical reason not to allow three people to get married. "And, I'm afraid, and I'm not the only one afraid of this, it could lead to mothers marrying sons and all kinds of things," Kilgour said.

    Toronto-area Liberal MPs Dennis Mills and Tom Wappell, along with several other backbench Liberal caucus members, have a long history of opposing the gay-rights agenda, which torpedos innuendo that such opposition can be conveniently dismissed as western Bible-belt extremism.

    Then there's the geezer theory. Larry Spencer is 61 and Elsie Wayne, 71. The National Post's Colby Cosh penned a smarmily patronizing op-ed suggesting that opposition to the homosexualization of society and sexual libertinism in general is largely a phenomenon of over-the-hill and slightly dotty oldsters unable to adapt to moral evolution in society. "It is hard for younger people to understand that conspiratorial explanations for (sexual propriety's) collapse might present themselves as natural to an older mind," Cosh condescended.

    Well, I'm nine years younger than Larry Spencer, came of age in the 1960s, and am a former hippie and a card-carrying member of the rock-and-roll generation, albeit not the MTV generation, have never been west of Ontario, and I'm steadfastly opposed to the gay political agenda, not only because I'm a traditionalist Christian, but also out of reasoned conviction.

    I think that the assertion that same-gender sexual relations are natural and normal is nonsensical. I'm currently on the cusp of geezerdom, but I held these same convictions in my teens and 20s. And so do a lot of Canadians younger than I am.

    Kilgour has noted that two-thirds of his Edmonton constituents oppose gay marriage, and a new national COMPAS poll finds that 63 per cent of respondents said they would strongly or somewhat support keeping the current definition of marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Are these people all fringe extremist nuts and bigots? If so, the fringe is mighty wide.

    The evident fond hope of gay activists and their lib-left fellow-travelers that time is on their side, that all they have to do is wait for the ignorant old bigots and homophobes to die off before they achieve their objective of pan-sexualist utopia, just ain't going to happen. While tolerance of those we disagree with is a keystone element of civilization, acceptance and approval are something else entirely. For devout and faithful Christians, approval of gay sex is a non-starter and will remain so. And Christianity, outside of Western liberal nations where it's in a slump, is the fastest-growing movement on the planet.

    To paraphrase another group's slogan: "We're here; there are a lot more of us than you imagine; and we're not going away." Agreement is impossible, but we somehow have to accommodate each other, and that accommodation has to be a two-way street.

    Charles W. Moore is a Nova Scotia-based writer and editor.

    © Copyright 2003 Montreal Gazette




    Without the usual diaribe, is this reality to you?
    24
    YES
    66.67%
    16
    NO
    33.33%
    8
    “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
    Or do we?

  • #2
    EDIT. Double post deleted.

    Comment


    • #3
      The really important question is:

      Where is the banana option?




      Actually, I agree that there is far too much name-calling in public life. I vote yes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry for the no banana opition, I have to admit I am nonconformist to tidy, antiquated, reasons for brown shi(r)ting. Hence, much to some people's chagrin I remain the rock.

        Actually, I agree that there is far too much name-calling in public life. I vote yes.


        I did not vote, but would agree with you, I left out the opition to vote both. Now that ticks me off
        “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
        Or do we?

        Comment


        • #5
          Let me get this right:

          Conservative Christians, hiding behind their religious doctrine, get to call homosexuals sinners, hell-bound, abominations, sodomites, perverts, or any of the colorful euphemisms they want. But if gay rights advocates object to such characterizations and call these folks on them, it's the activists who are villifying people? Right.

          Considering the past century so of how homosexuals have been treated in Western countries, and what they're still be called today (Right-wing Christians still have a pleasant habit of equating gays with child molestors, after all), I have as of yet little sympathy for the fundies.

          Me thinks me doth hear the tiniest violin in the world playing...
          Tutto nel mondo è burla

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh, to answer the poll, yes, there's far too much villification in politics, but Conservative Christians like Moore need to look to the planks in their own eyes before tending to the motes in others in this regard. Look who started it.
            Tutto nel mondo è burla

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you have made his point rather well.

              So when does it finish? You have made it clear THEY started it, who is person enough to finish it...

              It is inevitable that the wheels of justice and government will rubber stamp a balance. But at what cost to society? They have such a wonderful track record. I wish people would stop and think about that...

              This issue is akin to any other change enmass in any civilization, country, society, etc. So when are we as a planet, race, country, people, etc... Going to get it right?

              Reflect on what you have said and read it again, then read the article again. You have rights and freedoms as do they, respect them, respect yourself.

              I read from your post that you are in a battle to disrespect them, religion in general and thier right to belief. I see your desire to be recognized in the legal aspect of marital rights. So be it no one I bet disagrees, take a poll...

              But I see this war, this disrespect for those religious people who would want the word "marrage" kept close to thier heart, thier teachings, thier belief. Is this a bad thing? Can you not still be "married" under the same god (s) without the word? Of course you can, so why the attack on them? Titfor tat? Seems a wate of resourses to me? Anyone else?

              So why not compromise? Why not come up with a distinct wording to recognize your individual status, Quebec did, so have other minorities. After all we are not all the same are we?

              Minorities in our rights and beliefs. The differance is some destroy others to have thier say and in turn they destroy them for thier own right. Who wins?

              NOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOODY as the Bad Boy says NO BODY. So when do we learn?

              How much damage do we have to do to each other before we become civilized?

              Seems too simple...
              Last edited by blackice; December 12, 2003, 01:48.
              “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
              Or do we?

              Comment


              • #8
                I consider myself in many ways a social conservative

                I am in favor of marriage, of mongamy, of two parent families, I am not in favor of abortion (and seek to ban it after the 3 week (if not before))

                but I am for gay marriage (although I would prefer to call them gay unions)

                gays need a social structure that supports them, supports their kids, and helps them live a happy and successful life

                Jon Miller
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Look who started it.
                  Who started it is totally irrelevant. What really matters is who is going to finish it by acting like an adult and simply not responding in kind.
                  "Beauty is not in the face...Beauty is a light in the heart." - Kahlil Gibran
                  "The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved; loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves" - Victor Hugo
                  "It is noble to be good; it is still nobler to teach others to be good -- and less trouble." - Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                    Let me get this right:

                    Conservative Christians, hiding behind their religious doctrine, get to call homosexuals sinners, hell-bound, abominations, sodomites, perverts, or any of the colorful euphemisms they want. But if gay rights advocates object to such characterizations and call these folks on them, it's the activists who are villifying people? Right.

                    Considering the past century so of how homosexuals have been treated in Western countries, and what they're still be called today (Right-wing Christians still have a pleasant habit of equating gays with child molestors, after all), I have as of yet little sympathy for the fundies.

                    Me thinks me doth hear the tiniest violin in the world playing...
                    Yeah, right on! If we protest degrading slurs, we are OBVIOUSLY "misunderstanding" the good intentions of those people who hurl such slurs.


                    good post, Boris
                    A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      (Although I would prefer to call them gay unions)


                      I bet those darn religious people say the same thing...:0)

                      gays need a social structure that supports them, supports their kids, and helps them live a happy and successful life


                      So do fathers who have suffered court ordered separation of their children, and there is the chagrin...

                      Stare down the pipe of the government driven distraction. The gay people's fight did not start with the government, nope. Society was the enemy... The gay rights movement looked to the government for their rights. In turn their justice.

                      Where are we now.

                      Focus, because as it stands the average person as several polls suggest, are leaning the other way now. The government, no the judges...

                      Supreme Court says judges can ride herd on politicians

                      By KIRK MAKIN
                      JUSTICE REPORTER
                      Friday, November 7, 2003 - Page A1

                      The Supreme Court of Canada launched the judiciary into a bold, new realm of decision-making yesterday, ruling that judges may actively supervise how governments carry out their orders.
                      The 5-4 ruling in a minority-language-schools case revealed a deep cleft within the court on the question of when judges must show deference to legislatures.
                      The majority said judges can police enforcement of their orders in appropriate cases in order to prevent government inaction from trampling on constitutional rights.
                      This is especially true of minority-language-rights cases, they said, where a linguistic minority can end up being assimilated by the time bureaucrats finally respond to a court order.
                      "Deference ends where the constitutional rights the courts are charged with protecting begin," Mr. Justice Frank Iacobucci and Madam Justice Louise Arbour wrote. "The rule of law can be shallow without proper mechanisms for its enforcement."
                      However, the court minority protested vehemently that judges cannot depart from their proper role in a democracy and start micromanaging the legislative and executive branches.
                      Judges who meddle in the day-to-day management of public administration risk upsetting "the balance that has been struck between our three branches of government," Mr. Justice Louis LeBel and Madam Justice Marie Deschamps wrote for the minority.
                      They rejected the "so-called reporting order" of Mr. Justice Arthur LeBlanc of the Nova Scotia Supreme Court as being intrusive, unclear, seriously flawed and wholly inappropriate.
                      "The devil is in the details," they said. "His remedy undermined the proper role of the judiciary within our constitutional order and unnecessarily upset the balance between the three branches of government."


                      Dictate our democracy here.

                      So where are we herded?

                      Court: Homosexual sex not adultery

                      3-2 ruling based on traditional definition of extramarital activity

                      Posted: November 8, 2003
                      1:00 a.m. Eastern

                      © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
                      Married women are free to have extramarital sexual relations with other women, says the New Hampshire Supreme Court, without being at fault for the break-up of their marriage.
                      In a 3-2 ruling handed down today, the jurists decided the definition of adultery doesn't include homosexual sex, but requires heterosexual intercourse to have taken place.
                      The decision comes in a contentious divorce case.
                      David Blanchflower, of Hanover, N.H., originally filed for divorce from his wife, Sian, on grounds of irreconcilable differences. He then amended his petition, asserting his wife's "continuing adulterous affair" with Robin Mayer, a woman from Brownsville, Vt., caused the irreparable breakdown of their marriage.
                      An "at fault" finding benefits the husband in the division of the couple's property.


                      Does any of this seem a bit extreme? We are from what I have seen fairly rational people, no?
                      So why are we letting the government spend billions upon billions of our hard-earned pay for an obvious right.

                      Oh and by MAJORITY vote I bet a different name for the union… the union between same sex and all the rights and obligations that come with it? You bet ;0)

                      Seems too simple does it not? So next time your taxes go up write your opinion down on any subject you feel strongly about. Write it to your rep in fed and other governments. I BBAAAAHHHH BAHH bet You could save a dollar or two and ram it right back at them in parking tickets …

                      I really think this guy has it right you?
                      Last edited by blackice; December 12, 2003, 02:36.
                      “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
                      Or do we?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        that decision is just perpetuating the false view that women can't be gay, that a female-female relatinoship just can't satisfy and doesn't count as a relationship

                        you see this often with guys, who would leave their girls in a second if they kissed another dude, but pressure their girls to have sex with women (they do this because they do not beleive that another woman is any challenge to them)

                        somepoint people are going to wake up to the fact that homosexual relationships are just as much relationships as straight ones

                        (I don't know if gay relationships are similiar)

                        JOn Miller
                        Jon Miller-
                        I AM.CANADIAN
                        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah, right on! If we protest degrading slurs, we are OBVIOUSLY "misunderstanding" the good intentions of those people who hurl such slurs.


                          And the wheel goes round and round, who benefits?

                          Use your imagination... Break the mold man...
                          “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
                          Or do we?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            somepoint people are going to wake up to the fact that homosexual relationships are just as much relationships as straight ones
                            People do...But like any other enmass social change it has to be accepted by all without harming another...

                            You simply can not kill off all Bill Smith's because you want the name for yourself...

                            Nor can you kill the Bill Smith because he said he was going to do it.

                            No you have to compromise, right now the same sex union has the ok from the mass. Use that to rubber stamp the uniqueness of their union.

                            The rest is simply counter productive.
                            Last edited by blackice; December 12, 2003, 02:49.
                            “The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
                            Or do we?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              actually I would prefer the state to only deal with unions

                              gay unions and heterosexual unions (would be exactly the same)

                              Jon Miller
                              Jon Miller-
                              I AM.CANADIAN
                              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                              Comment

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