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Sentencing in Europe

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sprayber
    But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?
    Which is an issue of preventive measure, not punishment. If you have killed and are a threat to society, you go to the "Anstalt". Psychiatric treatment under security confinement.

    No lawyer here pleads on not temporary "insanity" in severe crime cases as it would put his client into much more **** than the normal prison sentence.
    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ecthelion
      but 15 is max right?
      I think it's 3-15 years, yes, but as I said I'm not fully sure on this.
      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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      • #18
        and then Anstalt... gibt's da ne steirische Variante von?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sprayber


          How many chances should the state extent to a person that shows little regard for a human life. If a person is convicted of some kind of theft or some crime that is not that serious then I agree that there is little benifit of sending them to prision for long periods of time. But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?
          It is not a question of number of chances.
          It is a question of what is most efficient. 10, 20, 30, 50 years max? Life? I don't know.
          It is almost sure 10 years is not enough for a criminal to understand or to change, and thus to protect the society. 50 years is probably too much. The optimum lies somewhere inbetween.
          When I compare the level of violence between the USA and Europe, I do not think that harsh penalties are efficient.

          The idea is not to be just, fair or moral. The idea is to lower the level of violence as low as possible, to save lifes.
          It probably means unfairness from the victim point of view, but some lives are at that price.
          The books that the world calls immoral are the books that show the world its own shame. Oscar Wilde.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by HershOstropoler


            Which is an issue of preventive measure, not punishment. If you have killed and are a threat to society, you go to the "Anstalt". Psychiatric treatment under security confinement.

            No lawyer here pleads on not temporary "insanity" in severe crime cases as it would put his client into much more **** than the normal prison sentence.

            Maybe that's the problem here in the states. Criminals are pretty much thrown in together. I do think there should be an attempt to put people in different areas depending on what they done. I dont know how economical viable that would be here though..
            Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh

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            • #21
              The perpetrators of the Achille Lauro attack are now free. Does anyone know what happened to them? Are they back in the middle east conducting more terrorist operations?

              Of course, there was that nice job the German police did with the Bader-Myerhoff gang.
              "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

              Comment

              • #22
                Re: Re: Sentencing in Europe

                Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                Ad 1, not completely, but mostly. And that's good that way.
                How so?
                As this is a non-harmonized area of penal law, the reference to "Europe" does not make much sense.
                The article got me interested in sentencing practices of Europe.
                In Austria for example, accessory to murder carries the same threat of punishment as murder.
                Let's take this case as an example. Would it be 3-15 years for each count or in total? If it is for each count would they sentences be concurrent, consecutive, or would that be solely up to the judge?
                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                • #23
                  When I compare the level of violence between the USA and Europe, I do not think that harsh penalties are efficient.
                  The harsh penalties have been instituted relatively recently. It used to be much more lenient here in the US.

                  That said, the level of violent crime has dropped pretty consistently under the harsh sentences, even as our population has increased. But since this stuff takes decades to show its full impact, this data is only preliminary.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                  • #24
                    Re: Re: Re: Sentencing in Europe

                    Originally posted by DinoDoc
                    How so?
                    A silly, utterly useless practice. What for should we have it?

                    "Let's take this case as an example. Would it be 3-15 years for each count or in total?"

                    I think it is seen as one crime. Anyway, the "times" for each murder would not be added up, so it's 15 years maximum.
                    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ecthelion
                      and then Anstalt... gibt's da ne steirische Variante von?
                      Usually it's Anstalt first. Our version is "Anstalt für geistig abnorme Rechtsbrecher" and "Anstalt für gefährliche Rückfalltäter". Though both are in lower Austria, not Styria IIRC...
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                      • #26
                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Sentencing in Europe

                        Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                        A silly, utterly useless practice.
                        You're not really telling me anything. How is it a silly, utterly useless practice? I'm not interested in advocating for it. I'm only interested in trying to better understand your position on the matter.
                        I think it is seen as one crime. Anyway, the "times" for each murder would not be added up,
                        I find this curious. Is there any reason why a person wouldn't be sentenced for each time the committed a crime?
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          DinoDoc, I'm not a supporter of DP (except in exceptional times, for example war), but it's fooocking redicilous. Life here is 12 years. Can you dig it?
                          It is RARELY used. You can kill, you can murder.. you'll likely get less than that. We are one of the most, if not the most violent crime ridden countries in the 'western europe'. At one point our capital Helsinki, my former home, held the title of murder capital in Europe. Can you dig it?

                          So it's not like we haven't heard of crime. Foreign countries, we are particulary known as violent folks. Stereotype of American being fat, Russians being drunks, we are drunk and violent. Can you dig it?

                          We are a country, where I can kick someones butt seriosuly without getting sentenced to jail. I can stab a man, almost to death and get paroled sentence, and most likely will. We are a country, where persons resume changed court decision to give him paroled sentence instead of short prison time for raping. We have accepted raping a woman being small crime, rarely anyone goes to jail for it. Can you dig it?

                          Physical violence, hurting someone, killing someone, beating someone up, stabbing them, kidnapping, braking into peoples home is nothing. You kill, you get out in half anyway if you're first timer. 6 years at most and you're free! Be even more clever, and drive a person over. You might not go to jail for a day. Be little drunk, your sentence WILL get reduced, after all how could you drive when you're drunk -> it wasn't your intention -> not your fault!!!! Can you dig it?

                          I say **** this collective humankind saving bull****. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime for Gods sake!
                          It's the Finnish backwards thinking we are all safe thinking. Statistics don't agree! It is safe, sure.. but don't be surprised if someone stabs some of your loved one death, and gets out after 2 summers and comes after you. **** that. I'm so sick of this bull****.

                          Of course, defending peoples freedom of not being touched and beat up is against criminals freedoms! After all, we need to understand why it happened.. it IS societies fault, and society must fix it by rehabing this mothereless person back to society, NO MATTER if the person indicates he's not willing to fit back.

                          Remember: Every person is good in heart, and if they kill someone, it just means they feel bad inside and we shouldn't make the pain any bigger.... screw everyone who knows the victims!
                          In da butt.
                          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                          • #28
                            Europeans in general are not as violent as american. I blame capitalism for the ultra-violence that pervades american society. Keep in mind I still support capitalism though- I'm not some commie. But our ultra competitive society does create problems of its own.

                            I do believe in harsh punishment. You don't have to worry about them escaping if they would just design an escape proof prison. And don't tell me no prison can be escape-proof. I am certain they can come up with something.

                            lock em up and throw away the key.

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                            • #29
                              Oh, and just before our 3-time killer escaped prison, they changed the rules that even big crime guys like killers and murderers have regular vacations Can you believe it? Vacation from prison? WTF?

                              And they also changed, that if you escape, you can get more to sentence. Mostly meaning you don't get your first parole when it's time to apply for it, not more REAL hard time. Because after all, escaping is natural for humans.. so we shouldn't punish them for doing it.
                              Can you dig it?
                              In da butt.
                              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Not to mention we are paradise for international criminals. I mean, how can you not love it when you can kill, sell 90000000000000000 kilos of heroin, kill 10 people more, kidnap, rape, steal, kill few cops, steal more, make frauds and get 400 000 euros for it, hide it, burn few houses down and kick little dog puppy in the stomach and get 12 years? This is when you likely get 12 years but... don't you just love it? I'd love it if I was criminal.

                                And.. it's good, because you can at the same time get that welfare check, dental care, everything for free!
                                It's worth it!
                                In da butt.
                                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                                Comment

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