Sentencing in Europe

[DinoDoc]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36730-2003Dec4.html

HAMBURG, Dec. 4 -- Relatives of American victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks expressed their grief in a German court Thursday and asked its panel of judges to sentence a Moroccan man accused of being an accessory in the plot to the maximum prison term.

Abdelghani Mzoudi, 30, an engineering student, is charged with more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder and membership in a terrorist organization for allegedly providing logistical support to the Hamburg cell that led the attacks. In February, another Moroccan, Mounir Motassadeq, was sentenced to 15 years in prison, the maximum allowed, on the same charges. He has appealed.

"It is difficult to lose a loved one in a tragedy, but it is devastating to lose him to murder," Debra Burlingame of Pelham Manor, N.Y., said about the death of her brother, Charles Burlingame III, the pilot of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. "He was slaughtered like an animal. . . . I respectfully ask that if [Mzoudi] is convicted, he be sentenced to the maximum penalty available, 15 years."

Burlingame said that would amount to less than two days in prison for each victim. After the hearing, Burlingame described Mzoudi as "an unreachable, lost soul."

...

Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

"Whole life" sentences are an option in Britain, though in practice they are fairly rare.

[VetLegion]

On the other hand you can't judge that guy just by the newspaper article, the court probably knows what they are doing. I hope.

[Ecthy]

in Germany you can get life with no option to get free before death, namely when put into closed high security psychiatry after prison. if you're not a psychotic, you won't get more than 15 years I'm afraid.

[VetLegion]

How much did the RAF get?

[Bereta_Eder]

They acquited one after 20 years.

Prosecution proposed 17N gets 10,900 years of prison in total. That's a bit overkill although it can enter the Guiness.

edit:correction

[Commie Chocobo]

well, the courts in most western countries are getting more lenient these days

[Ecthy]

true, but those were usually labeled mentally unstable as well... I'm not an expert on this anyway

[Dry]

20 years is the max in Belgium. And if you are a good boy, you may be freed at 2/3 of your time.
Many prisonners are thus interested in being good boys.

Harsh sentences makes harsh criminals.
Life or very long term sentences fabricates wild beasts. What would the interest be of behaving nice if there is absolutely no hope of a better situation (freedom while you are still 'young')?
When a life convict escapes and takes hostages, killing a few of them is no problem, his situation cannot be worse.
When a 15-20year convict escapes and takes hostages, killing only one of them will bring him 15-20 other years (new crime, new sentence).
I prefer to be hostage of the second one...

When someone knows (or feels) his situation cannot be worse or has no way of improving his current situation, he will use desperate means, increasing the level of violence in the prison/society.

I think this may be one of the element that makes Europe (and Canada?) less violent places than USA or Asia?.

[Ramo]

Yep. The violent crime rate in Western Europe is several times lower than in the US. As far as I'm concerned, the European justice system is generally far better than the American justice in every respect.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Dry
20 years is the max in Belgium. And if you are a good boy, you may be freed at 2/3 of your time.
Many prisonners are thus interested in being good boys.

Harsh sentences makes harsh criminals.
Life or very long term sentences fabricates wild beasts. What would the interest be of behaving nice if there is absolutely no hope of a better situation (freedom while you are still 'young')?
When a life convict escapes and takes hostages, killing a few of them is no problem, his situation cannot be worse.
When a 15-20year convict escapes and takes hostages, killing only one of them will bring him 15-20 other years (new crime, new sentence).
I prefer to be hostage of the second one...

When someone knows (or feels) his situation cannot be worse or has no way of improving his current situation, he will use desperate means, increasing the level of violence in the prison/society.

I think this may be one of the element that makes Europe (and Canada?) less violent places than USA or Asia?.

How many chances should the state extent to a person that shows little regard for a human life. If a person is convicted of some kind of theft or some crime that is not that serious then I agree that there is little benifit of sending them to prision for long periods of time. But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?

[Ramo]

How many chances should I give to a state that shows little regard for a human life?

[Drogue]

Re: Sentencing in Europe

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Abdelghani Mzoudi, 30, an engineering student, is charged with more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder and membership in a terrorist organization for allegedly providing logistical support to the Hamburg cell that led the attacks.

Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

Murder someone. Accessory to murder is a far lesser charge, as is membership of a terrorist organisation (since membership doesn't include any attacks, simly being a member).

[HershOstropoler]

Re: Sentencing in Europe

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

Ad 1, not completely, but mostly. And that's good that way.

As for the german case, you have the leniency clause for accessory which converts threat of a life sentence to 3-15 years, IIRC. As this is a non-harmonized area of penal law, the reference to "Europe" does not make much sense. In Austria for example, accessory to murder carries the same threat of punishment as murder.

[Ecthy]

but 15 is max right?