Tweet
Skywalker, there's a difference. If you call the tailgater a stupid... as he does it, I agree with MtG, it's in the heat of the moment (plus it does you blood pressure no good 
). However, if you state before going out that whatever happens to the next stupid... that tailgates me will be their fault, brake hard and cause a collision, killinig someone, and it turns out a prosecuting attorney hears about your statement, you can get prosecuted for negligent homicide. It's not likely, but that is the law.
In civilian terms (I don't know the ins and outs of military law) if Oerdin after seeing a buddy killed at an ambush beats the crap out of an Iraqi prisoner (we already have some marines up on charges for beating prisoners) who subsequently dies, he could be brought up on first degree murder charges if his comments on this site were discovered. If MtG had done the exact same thing, the most he would get charged with is second degree murder, maybe even manslaghter. Semantic games show what a person was thinking, and Oerdin's comments outside of an immediate threat show a dangerous mind set. It's also why road rage has become more common, as our society apparently tolerates this mind set now (IMO).
Ned, nice reply, it's nice having someone read my post, not read into it! Reference turning the policing over to the Iraqis, yes I favor it, but not in that sense.
Iraq, like many of the so-called nations created out of the colonial regimes (read nasty empires, colonial regimes sounds so, well, academic) and the fall of the Ottomans, does not have any natural demographic cohesion (as in the three main ethno-religious groups don't play well together). It should probably be three countries, with a Kurdistan, Babylon for the Sunni triangle, and probably the Shia South as part of Iran. It's not going to happen.
Our solutions now are thin, as the nations we should have had policing Iraq, various surrounding Moslem nations, instead are becoming prime recruiting grounds for Al Quaeda, if they weren't all ready (do not get me started on Saudi Arabia and their funding of Wahabe fundamentalists and religious schools that preach hate and intolerance). A force of Turks in the south, with Pakistani and Indonesian troops in other parts of the country, could have worked. Again, this is why I opposed the way the Bush administration did the lead-up to the war.
The problem is that the Kurds are now armed quite nicely. I followed the stories during the disintegration of the Saddam regime, and news reporters in the north commented that the Kurds were removing much of the abandoned heavy weaponry. The Kurds are not going to settle for a tyranny of the majority without strong minority rights. Turkey will not permit them to declare independence.
The only way to get our tail out of the meat grinder is to make recruiting a new, and quite large, Iraqi security force a priority. It will have to be multi-ethnic/religious drawing from all three groups (Shia, Sunni, and Kurds), and well equipped for counter-insurgency missions. It will be expensive, and the US will get almost no return. The current security force that keeps getting nailed by car bombers and guerillas is under-equipped and under-trained.
I don't see it happening. First of all, the only money being sunk into Iraq (versus spent to support current military ops) is in contracts to connected companies. Please note these are non-competitive contracts that are for all intents and purposes secret, with the Cheney-Bush administration refusing to disclose details. Secondly, looking at the US record in Afghanistan, this administation is trying to do a Marshall plan on the cheap. You get what you pay for.
My worst nightmare is in the rush to get out, we let the tyranny of the majority plus one shove their religious views - Shia - down the throats of the other two minorities, and we end up with a guerilla war that simmers on for decades. Plus I am truly curious how Kuwait and Saudi Arabia will resond to another Shia religious state on their borders.
Ned, I agree completely. I wish the politicians would learn from history (nice succinct overview of US occupation efforts, IMO). The problem is, at this point we have laid such a miserable foundation, I cannot see how we can build anything healthy on the jury-rigged foobar in place. Can you give any examples of a country successfully reconstructing a conquered area, maybe even just a territorial section that revolted, rapidly, from such a deficit? I can't, and I cannot see the American people tolerating a long, bleeding occupation. Which leaves a rapid cobbled together rebuild, which by it's nature will be all f****d up.
By the way (response to the various posts), the KKK was a white Southerner resistance movement. I'd never considered it that, but it is a legitemate point. Resistance in no way implies good guys. Some of the nastiest resistance movements imposed brutal conditions on the minorities they didn't like, once they got in power. Africa and Central America are full of examples of this. It actually plays very nicely into my scenario for post-war Iraq, with a Shia majority shoving their interpetation of the Koran down the Sunni and Kurds throats. Causing another guerilla war, ad infinitum. I seriously hope I'm wrong.
). However, if you state before going out that whatever happens to the next stupid... that tailgates me will be their fault, brake hard and cause a collision, killinig someone, and it turns out a prosecuting attorney hears about your statement, you can get prosecuted for negligent homicide. It's not likely, but that is the law. In civilian terms (I don't know the ins and outs of military law) if Oerdin after seeing a buddy killed at an ambush beats the crap out of an Iraqi prisoner (we already have some marines up on charges for beating prisoners) who subsequently dies, he could be brought up on first degree murder charges if his comments on this site were discovered. If MtG had done the exact same thing, the most he would get charged with is second degree murder, maybe even manslaghter. Semantic games show what a person was thinking, and Oerdin's comments outside of an immediate threat show a dangerous mind set. It's also why road rage has become more common, as our society apparently tolerates this mind set now (IMO).
Ned, nice reply, it's nice having someone read my post, not read into it! Reference turning the policing over to the Iraqis, yes I favor it, but not in that sense.
Iraq, like many of the so-called nations created out of the colonial regimes (read nasty empires, colonial regimes sounds so, well, academic) and the fall of the Ottomans, does not have any natural demographic cohesion (as in the three main ethno-religious groups don't play well together). It should probably be three countries, with a Kurdistan, Babylon for the Sunni triangle, and probably the Shia South as part of Iran. It's not going to happen.
Our solutions now are thin, as the nations we should have had policing Iraq, various surrounding Moslem nations, instead are becoming prime recruiting grounds for Al Quaeda, if they weren't all ready (do not get me started on Saudi Arabia and their funding of Wahabe fundamentalists and religious schools that preach hate and intolerance). A force of Turks in the south, with Pakistani and Indonesian troops in other parts of the country, could have worked. Again, this is why I opposed the way the Bush administration did the lead-up to the war.
The problem is that the Kurds are now armed quite nicely. I followed the stories during the disintegration of the Saddam regime, and news reporters in the north commented that the Kurds were removing much of the abandoned heavy weaponry. The Kurds are not going to settle for a tyranny of the majority without strong minority rights. Turkey will not permit them to declare independence.
The only way to get our tail out of the meat grinder is to make recruiting a new, and quite large, Iraqi security force a priority. It will have to be multi-ethnic/religious drawing from all three groups (Shia, Sunni, and Kurds), and well equipped for counter-insurgency missions. It will be expensive, and the US will get almost no return. The current security force that keeps getting nailed by car bombers and guerillas is under-equipped and under-trained.
I don't see it happening. First of all, the only money being sunk into Iraq (versus spent to support current military ops) is in contracts to connected companies. Please note these are non-competitive contracts that are for all intents and purposes secret, with the Cheney-Bush administration refusing to disclose details. Secondly, looking at the US record in Afghanistan, this administation is trying to do a Marshall plan on the cheap. You get what you pay for.
My worst nightmare is in the rush to get out, we let the tyranny of the majority plus one shove their religious views - Shia - down the throats of the other two minorities, and we end up with a guerilla war that simmers on for decades. Plus I am truly curious how Kuwait and Saudi Arabia will resond to another Shia religious state on their borders.
Ned, I agree completely. I wish the politicians would learn from history (nice succinct overview of US occupation efforts, IMO). The problem is, at this point we have laid such a miserable foundation, I cannot see how we can build anything healthy on the jury-rigged foobar in place. Can you give any examples of a country successfully reconstructing a conquered area, maybe even just a territorial section that revolted, rapidly, from such a deficit? I can't, and I cannot see the American people tolerating a long, bleeding occupation. Which leaves a rapid cobbled together rebuild, which by it's nature will be all f****d up.
By the way (response to the various posts), the KKK was a white Southerner resistance movement. I'd never considered it that, but it is a legitemate point. Resistance in no way implies good guys. Some of the nastiest resistance movements imposed brutal conditions on the minorities they didn't like, once they got in power. Africa and Central America are full of examples of this. It actually plays very nicely into my scenario for post-war Iraq, with a Shia majority shoving their interpetation of the Koran down the Sunni and Kurds throats. Causing another guerilla war, ad infinitum. I seriously hope I'm wrong.
Comment