The Joy of being a European...

[GePap]

So lets see: Germany and France broke the rules for internal reasons: they then went to the council of ministers and cajoled and argued their way into the body giving in to their request...

So what?

The current form of the EU is not really that good..and no, the problem is not "Franco-German domination", if only becuase how could you not get Franco-German domination given the population and economic of Europe? The problem lis in too much power still left to the individual administrations. THe EU parliement need much greater powers so that the average EU member gets to see they, and not the members of the amdin., set policy. That has not happened, and won't happen for a long time. Political integration wil take maybe a century more or so.

[Tripledoc]

I could be wrong, but didn't Schroeder just push a 30% tax cut through the Bundestag. That, if true, is hardly a 'miniscule' tax cut.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Both France & Germany have very high fixed spending programs which need trimming. Even if taxes weren't cut there would still be long term deficites due to the high fixed spending.

The bloated public sector is a problem. However the problem derives from the fact that an increasing amount is set aside for control measures to make sure that no one gets a free ride. My suggestion would be that great savings can be made by cutting down on office space and all the equipment that goes with it, and simply provide each citizen with a basic free annual income. Also known as 'citizen's pay'.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I agree that the stability pact was & is needed but the primary reason for the current deficits in France and Germany is bloated social spending not the extremely minor tax reductions. Both France & Germany have very high fixed spending programs which need trimming. Even if taxes weren't cut there would still be long term deficites due to the high fixed spending.

The structural deficit in France comes mostly from a lack of income. In France, most welfare is not managed by the State's budget, and as such the welfare doesn't account in the deficit.

The problem in France is a lack of economic dynamism, meaning insufficient income; it is coupled with a very wrong taxation system: sales tax is the main source of income for the State (19,6% of the price of any product is sales tax), income tax is relatively marginal, and even more so since the tax cuts.
It is doubtful that our spending is too high. Liberal economists repeat it all day long, but I have only seen chants, not proofs.

[mrmitchell]

Did you forget the American boycott directed specifically against these two countries, and designed to hurt them as much as possible?

We boycotted France and Germany? Really!? When did this happen? Gosh, I need to keep up with the times.

[Whoha]

Its not really the boycott so much as the dollar vs the Euro and the economic slump.

Everyone that hated Europe here already hated Europe, and everyone that loved them loved them. Now we just can't but as much of their stuff.

[Spiffor]

Whoha:
Indeed, one of the problems that are dragging the stopped European economies (at least France and Germany) is the lack of exports. The growth cycle in France (1997-2001) could find explanation in a strong internal and external demand. The relative weakness of the € made us import less as well, and as such we consumed preferably French or other European products.

Now, the strength of the € (more accurately, the weakness of the $) is hampering any serious attempt to regain a significant growth.

I still don't get why the ECB remains adamant at keeping the € at high levels. I guess they believe it's the only way to have our currency compete against the $ as the international currency in the future.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I guess they believe it's the only way to have our currency compete against the $ as the international currency in the future.

I am afraid you are wrong on this one. The only decision which could result in decreasing the value of the € versus the $ is a decrease of the interest rate which are already quite low, without insurance that this would produce the expected effect. And compared to the £, the Swiss Franc and the Yen, the € has not dramatically gone upward.

What confirms that everything is not caused by the rates of exchange, is that, despite the sharp fall of the US$, the US foreign trade account does not improve.

The € is ALREADY an international currency (15% of central banks reserves are made of €), with a respectable share of international transactions, only because the european economy is really big and Europe is in peace, and this despite everything not perfect.

I am sure that the last thing desired by the ECB is to destabilized the US $, particularly at a time when they have not solved the problem of the twin deficits.

[Pekka]

This is one of the things I was ranting about last summer. To be more accurate, that the power twins Chirac and Schroeder (lets not mix up the people, they're different than these two) will get their ways every single time they want to. And, that their goal is to have a bigger influence to Europe SO THEY CAN benefit from it and have even more power. And that we will be doing what ever they decide, and when it's tiem for them to do, they can dodge it when ever they want to do so.

I was confronted with arguments such as: Everyone is truly equal in the EU. It is not possible. Even small ones have impact, everyone has to follow the rules and are equal in the face of the rules.

Hmm.. I guess the game hater was right after all!
Oh yes.. and check this out, it happened exactly like that. And when you say 'you small ones can team up and beat the big ones'.. Listen to yourselves.. does it make us small ones equal? NO! We have to be equal, small or big! Not 'when you all gang up against me, you'll be about as big as I am'. That's not equality. Then people started going on how true equality is impossible. I guess you are right about that one. But if this is one of those 'well why don't you all gang up and start raining on these two'... it's not equality!

And about the constitution.. yeah.. adn I wonder who makes that. We all together? Like I said, big ones get their will through, adn we small ones are happy to get even one thing our way. But that means there are 10 things going the wrong way for us. But hey, we should be happy about the one thing! WRONG! We shouldn't, we should be outraged, we should ****ing stand up and fight! Give serious ultimatums. Either it goes like we all agreed, or this thing of ours is OVER. I'm tired fo this slow advancing tactics, because that's exactly what's going on.

It has been going on for years already, and still going strong. It means that we force things little by little, people will complain, but as long as we advance slowly, we will get to our final goal without huge obstacles. People are getting screwed.

I repeat again what we were promised before voting about joining the EU. THis was from the mouths of pro-EU:

No it doesn't mean we'll have to give up our own money.
No, it doesn't mean we start having common laws (like constitution)
No, we are as powerful as everyone else in there, and we will be heard.
No, it doesn't mean we'll be joining EU armies.
No, it doesn't mean we will have another leader system.

Oooooooops! I guess someone ****ed up!
And about that defense too, the mofos already have everything planned, and we're not in it. We get security guarantees if we say ok we want that, but we can't be in ANY control of it! Yeah souinds like a good deal to me. **** that!

And then there is our own country that ****s up the EU things too. The good things that comes out of being in EU for us citizens.. like we thought prices will go down. Food will be cheaper. This was promised to us. Cars won't be taxed so hard, because it's impossible inside EU to have one country with horrible nazi taxes.. OOOOOoops! I guess it happened!

And it's NOT getting ANY better, it's goign worse for the small ones. GOod for the big ones, bad for the small ones. TRUE Euros will love this, naturally, being Euro to them is like having BMW for guys with small dicks. Being proud about their own nationality is too oldschool, lame and history. Talk about some values here.

[Pekka]

But sure, I'm all for the great EU, but only if it's great. IMO this way it's going to suck big time in the long run.
So let's do it properly and not fiddle around with it. I'm tired of listening some old dudes utopias who reads poetry first thing he wakes up and drinks herbs before going to sleep. Grasp of reality would be nice.

[germanos]

I will vote No on both the European Constitution as well as on the enlargement of the EU.


France and Germany have made it clear their promisses are not worth the paper its printed on.

What idiots they are: first they draw up the stability pact, and then they are the first to break it.

All this is a big step backward for the EU.

[Pekka]

You get to vote for it?

[germanos]

it certainly looks like it

[Pekka]

we don't get to vote about anything. Democracy? BS.

[Az]

I, too, think that the future of the EU lies in the move of sovereignity from the nationstates to the Federation. but how will it happen? I dunno. The EU is very fascinating to me. I see some big upheavals, but I am certain that Europe will emerge united. ( but probably without Britain). There has always been a geopolitical pull to unite europe in the last 2 centuries, and now, with the two main powers on the continent united in this desire, and not competing with eachother, but moving close, almost as one ( Franco-German policy), and with Russia at an all-time low vis a vis them, I think that it's quite clear. Just think about it. Who will stop them?