It is my country you want...

[Drake Tungsten]

since we are the satan's final empire of course.

No wonder he's doomed to failure.

[Bereta_Eder]

How are things in Japan? Do they kill you for your snickers like the good ol' US of A?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I get the impression that the EU is an attempt by European nations to create a mini-United Nations. One in which only they can be apart of. Same lofty goals and with the same determination to keep it from ever meaning much of anything when it conflicts with national interests.

On economic matters, the EU is a very serious thing. member-states have no sovereignity at all when it comes to trade negociations, and they all have to follow the EU's common position. Individual government shape this common position by haggling, but once it's decided, everyone has to stick to it. This is why the EU is generally strongly for open markets worldwide, but still keeps agro subsidies - you can say it's the result of a French-British (or more precisely, a compromise between countries favorable to free-trade, and countries rather opposed to them).

Countries that use the Euro as their currency have no sovereignity at all in their monetary policy. The aims of the Central Bank have been carved in stone at some EU meeting, and everyone has to abide by the decisions of the Central Bank, which follows those aims.
Wim Duisenberg in the past, and now Jean Claude Trichet are the leaders of the ECB, and are as important to all Europeans as Alan Greenspan to you Yanks.

[Monk]

I could be wrong of course but I think Europeans like the idea of having a larger political unit but are secretly determined to keep national power for as long as possible.

Correct. Now, the European governments, on the other hand...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I could be wrong of course but I think Europeans like the idea of having a larger political unit but are secretly determined to keep national power for as long as possible.

That or the goverments are delibertly going slow to let people get used to the idea of their nations slowly turning into mere provences.

Of course its just speculation. We really don't get a clear picture here of how popular or unpopular the EU is in Europe. We just get sound bites every now and then.

From those sound-bites, you've still managed to hit the nail on the head. It's a predictable tale- everyone wants the toys and moans like mad at anything not going their way.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I could be wrong of course but I think Europeans like the idea of having a larger political unit but are secretly determined to keep national power for as long as possible.

That or the goverments are delibertly going slow to let people get used to the idea of their nations slowly turning into mere provences.

The problem is that there are so much different views what the EU should be - for some it should be a superstate, for some a lose union, some go rather for the economic aspects, some for the political - and then there are the pure Euro idealists who simply like the project of a unified Europe.

It is not even clear between the single govts. what the course should be (and that will not change soon), so every decision is only done after a long search for a compromise, and often that compromise is not the best solution.

However, IMO there are clear reasons for the EU, despite all its problems with bureaucracy, lack of transparency, sometimes also lack of democracy in certain decision-making procedures. I also think we don´t have big alternatives as Europeans, I certainly cannot imagine a Europe that goes back to the pre-war situation without any elements of supranational politics. That would mean a lot more serious political or economical conflicts within Europe than those we have now in the EU.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Countries that use the Euro as their currency have no sovereignity at all in their monetary policy

Yes they do. Tax policy and deficit spending have just as much to do with monetary policy as setting a prime interest rate does. In fact the reason for the stability pact was to prevent the common currency being devalued due to a profilgate member state being to loose with tax or deficite policy.

[Spiffor]

Oerdin:

What you describe is the budgetary policy, which remains very national, with only a flawed Stability Pact as common rule. Budgetary policy and Monetary policy used together can bring good results. The Brits have such results, and they're perfectly right in rejecting the €.

I mean, there is a harmony between their budgetary policy and their monetary policy, something that cannot happen in the Eurozone as long as the ECB will be so adamant, and as long as there won't be any serious crossborder harmonization in budgetary policies.

I've just read that Trichet whines that the Constitution may make it easier to change the ECB's status, and it could be easier to force the ECB to focus on growth rather than inflation. The horror !
This unelected asshull even demands that the ECB gets consulted over the constitution, no matter if it is completely unelected and illegitimate

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
no matter if it is completely unelected and illegitimate

Why should a central bank be elected?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why should a central bank be elected?

It shouldn't (well, I'm against independent central banks altogether, but that's another story).

But unelected people should have no more say in the elaboration of the constitution than average citizens. That Trichet demands the ECB's opinion of the Constitution to be taken into account is outrageous in my opinion.

[Combat Ingrid]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is my country you want...

Originally posted by paiktis22
we are the satan's final empire of course.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But unelected people should have no more say in the elaboration of the constitution than average citizens.

That's silly. Experts on certain aspects SHOULD have more of an ear of the drafters than the average joe.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That's silly. Experts on certain aspects SHOULD have more of an ear of the drafters than the average joe.

As a matter of fact, the Constitution doesn't change the current aims of the ECB (where the ECB people could have a say). It merely makes it easier to change these aims. And the process of change is a purely political matter, where the ECB shouldn't shove its ugly nose.

[Imran Siddiqui]

the Constitution doesn't change the current aims of the ECB (where the ECB people could have a say). It merely makes it easier to change these aims.

Isn't that something the ECB should be consulted on? If the aims can be changed too easily, the politicians can mess with the economy too much. But they politicians should have some say over the economy. The ECB members can help with the balancing issues.

[Gangerolf]

the final solution?