Far right wing nationalists gain power in Croatia

[VetLegion]

That being said, It would be nice for the Croatian voter to be a little more sypathetic to its minorities.

PLATO, I am sorry, but you are completely in the wrong here. Thank you for giving me the chance to explain the situation in Croatia and compare to some other countries

First, there is no such thing as a minority in citizen countries of Europe. You are either a citizen and you can vote, or you are not.

France and Germany for example, have large muslim and other minorities but those do not have any special priviledges in politics. There is only one parliament and all who can vote vote for it.

But there are to my knowledge, only two countries in Europe, that guarantee minorities representatives in the parliament

Slovenia and Croatia.

The situation is like this, voters of a minority group can choose to vote on a special "minority list" where only other minortiy candidates can compete. Those that win have the guaranteed right to sit in the parliament (Sabor) although they have been chosen by say 10 000 people while the standard for every other normal representative is 30 000 votes or so.

This situation violates the constitutions of these countries and is actually positive discrimination at its worst.

But it is there.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by PLATO
That being said, It would be nice for the Croatian voter to be a little more sypathetic to its minorities.

Shall we compare the Greek/Albanian situation to this? Why we could even have a little fun wondering if that had anything to do with their support of the Milosevic government?

[VetLegion]

Now let me compare minority politics of Croatia to some other random European country with unresolved minority issues, say, Greece

Through their state policies in the past Greeks have shown only one constant - extreme nationalism.

Should I start with genocides of the Turks, invasion of Turk soil in Asia Minor, hatred for the Jews of Solun or with unfair treatment of Macedonian minority?

I do not want to go through history again though, others know more about this I am sure. And about the reasoning behind it, well... paiktis said it best: "In the Balkans, homogenity is strength."

Mind you, he is somewhat a lefty by Greek standards

So, forget the past and lets examine the situation in Greece right now.

What do official censii tell us about minorities?

That there are none!

But what about the one million Albanians, the still struggling Macedonians, the voting priviledges, the minority scools, the ...

There are none!

Case closed

[Tripledoc]

Vetlegion you seem to think that the protection of minority rights is a huge injustice to the Croatian people, since it violates the constitution.

I can see how such a voting law would infuriate certain people, but frankly, are there not other problems in the Croatian body politic that would require more attention. For instance is croatian culture really so weak that it cannot accomodate a few 'foreign' elements?

In that case mayhaps one should tone down the nationalist hysteria and allow for a greater deal of dissent and accomodation.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

So is this a far-right nationalist party or not?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Shall we compare the Greek/Albanian situation to this? Why we could even have a little fun wondering if that had anything to do with their support of the Milosevic government?

Kind of funny how Europe could stomache Greek support of Milosevic and Greeks (almost) wrecking Macedonia with sanctions, but when Heider gets elected in Austria, all hell breaks loose.

Paiktis is just pissed because euro welfare is going to stop flowing into Greece very soon.


But we wont forget our favourite nationalist
We'll set up some kind of donation fund, or something, have no fear, there will be food on the table

[Tripledoc]

I fail to see how the polies of Greece should act as justification for the policies of Croatia. After all Croatia is not a member of the EU, and Greece is. Unless you can work out some deal with Americans on some long distance trade you better start dancing along to the tune or risk embargo.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by VetLegion

That being said, It would be nice for the Croatian voter to be a little more sypathetic to its minorities.

PLATO, I am sorry, but you are completely in the wrong here. Thank you for giving me the chance to explain the situation in Croatia and compare to some other countries

First, there is no such thing as a minority in citizen countries of Europe. You are either a citizen and you can vote, or you are not.

France and Germany for example, have large muslim and other minorities but those do not have any special priviledges in politics. There is only one parliament and all who can vote vote for it.

But there are to my knowledge, only two countries in Europe, that guarantee minorities representatives in the parliament

Slovenia and Croatia.

The situation is like this, voters of a minority group can choose to vote on a special "minority list" where only other minortiy candidates can compete. Those that win have the guaranteed right to sit in the parliament (Sabor) although they have been chosen by say 10 000 people while the standard for every other normal representative is 30 000 votes or so.

This situation violates the constitutions of these countries and is actually positive discrimination at its worst.

But it is there.

Post WW1 the League of Nations insisted on special rights for minorities in the eastern european successor states, partly out of the realistic acknowledgement of the need to offset majority discrimination, and partyly to compensate minorities cut off by more or less arbitrary borders. Croatia and Slovenia seem not unreasonable applications of this idea.

OTOH opposition to such an arrangement, doesnt seem to automatically be "nationalist hysteria" iS that really the entire issue?

[VetLegion]

Lazarus, no, this a case of one faction of former comunist party which sells the people nationalism to get into power, replacing another faction which sells equality, justice and other crap while neither of them fulfil their promises

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
OTOH opposition to such an arrangement, doesnt seem to automatically be "nationalist hysteria" iS that really the entire issue?

There is obvioulsy a great deal of money involved too. Howver as the saying goes when the through is empty the pigs start squealing.

[Dinner]

It seems the mandarins in Brussels are one of the least democratic groups in Europe. They pontificate and demand voters do as they are told and when the voters in democratic countries freely choice a policy which is different from the poorly thought out official party line of Brussels they are demonized and threatened. I recall when Austria elected a right win leader it was the “progressive” left wing of Europe who demanded censorship and legal sanctions. That the Austrian right had broken no laws and had simply advocated different policies then Brussels’s left wing ideologues didn’t matter.

The EU’s central government is run by an intolerant group of left wing ideologues who have never been elected and who are completely unaccountable to the people.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


There is obvioulsy a great deal of money involved too. Howver as the saying goes when the through is empty the pigs start squealing.

I meant was the extent of "the nationalist hysteria"? I mean will they still cooperate with repatriating ethnic Serb refugees to Krajina? Have they repudiated Tjudmans record of apology for antisemitism? Is the issue of minority seats in the parliament the only focus of alleged "nationalist hysteria"?

[VetLegion]

Vetlegion you seem to think that the protection of minority rights is a huge injustice to the Croatian people, since it violates the constitution.

No. Protection of minority rights includes a right to schooling in their own language, right to partial self goverment, their own newspapers, culture and so on.

All these rights they can freely practice in Croatia.

I can see how such a voting law would infuriate certain people, but frankly, are there not other problems in the Croatian body politic that would require more attention.

I only mentioned parliamentary representation as my example of how relatively well minorities are treated in Croatia.

This is in my opinion unfair and should be abolished, but it is not a big issue in Croatia. I don't remember anyone pulling the question actually.

For instance is croatian culture really so weak that it cannot accomodate a few 'foreign' elements?

Don't you worry about Croatian culture. It is doing pretty well

I fail to see how the polies of Greece should act as justification for the policies of Croatia. After all Croatia is not a member of the EU, and Greece is.

Exactly my point!

This proves how advanced Croatia is in this area. Greeks have not had a war in decades and they never had a war with Macedonias for example.

Compare their treatment of minorities to Croatian, and we had a bloody war with separatist Serb minority only eight years ago.

[VetLegion]

lotm, there is no "nationalist hysteria" in Croatia.

The right wing party that came to power, HDZ, immediately confirmed their dedication to cooperation with EU, with the court in Hague and so on.

These elections were not won because of a rise of nationalism, they were lost by the ruling party (who won the last elections in a landslide) because promised reforms were pretty weak.

We had a 5.2 percent growth this year, but that was not enough for the dissappointed voters.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Have they repudiated Tjudmans record of apology for antisemitism?

The EU policy on anti-semitism is akin to the famous three monkeys. Don't see, Don't hear, Don't tell. That is the perception from the outside, and that won't change no matter how submissive the EU is. Hence the policy of combating anti-semitism is probably relegated to the backseat since it is a no win situation.