Bush's visit to Britain

[Ned]

MikeH, The way Iraq is coming around and the good will we have built up there is going to contribute to a seachange in the Islamic world for the better. Saudi Arabia is already moving towards democracy. They are having municipal elections soon. And, they have muzzled (removed) the most radical of the Wahhabi clerics.

Having a democratic Iraq next door to Iran has got to impact the pro-democracy movement there in a positive way.

None of the above would have happened had Saddam still been in power.

I believe that history will record the events of the last two years concerning Afghanistan and Iraq as the most important moves toward a more democratic and peaceful world since the fall of communism and perhaps since WWII.

[DanS]

The political fallout from this move has so far been disturbing from the view of Washington, and things might turn out worse.

They expected the political fallout, but went ahead with it anyway. So far, it has been limited.

[Adam Smith]

I am not at all pleased with US foreign policy. But to those who protest Bush's visit ... to those who protest the war ... to those who opposed UN sanctions on Iraq ... what alternative do you offer for dealing with regimes who have undertaken agression against their neighbors? Who murder, torture, and gas their citizens? I've asked this question before, and have yet to receive plausible answer.

For example, last summer there was concern about the actionsof the regime in Myanmar, or whatever they call themselves this week. The US initiated a trade embargo. The EU imposed a visa ban on certain military officials (as if the officials care). Asian nations scheduled a visit to express their concern...sometime in 2004.

edit: extraneous text

[HershOstropoler]

Shall we debate your government's extensive support for the torture and murder regimes of Uzbekistan and Pakistan, where the latter is a sponsor of terrorism, too?

So if we have to see Iraq in isolation to abstract from the rampant hypocrisy.

[Adam Smith]

Nice try at ducking the issue.

Would you care to articulate a policy, or do you just want to keep signing oil contracts with these kind folks?

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Ned I believe that history will record the events of the last two years concerning Afghanistan and Iraq as the most important moves toward a more democratic and peaceful world since the fall of communism and perhaps since WWII.

Is it acceptable for governments to lie to their people to do something which in the long run may benefit them? I expect my government to be honest about what they are doing and why. Is it acceptable for a modern and supposedly accountable democracy to justify its actions by "the ends justify the means" and to mislead it's citizens to get it's own way even if it thinks it is acting in their best interests? Is that the kind of democracy we want to give to the world?

There are plenty of metaphors I could make about how doing one thing wrong could make things better in general. Does that mean that it's sometimes OK to act badly? I'm not naive enough to think that governments make compromises like that all the time, or that they'll struggle to keep them secret. It's our duty to keep an eye on what our governments are doing and ask them about it. Whether that be by me doing something as trivial faxing my MP and asking them about something, or expressing my concerns to them (which they then have to answer). Or by taking part in a protest against things I disagree with.

So... what's my point... This is the way I see it.

Was Iraq an oppressive regime? Yes.
Will the people of Iraq be better off in future? Almost certainly.
Will the world be a more stable place in the future after this? Too early to tell. Hopefully yes.
Was Iraq a clear danger to the US and UK (and Israel) to the point that it had to be invaded to secure those countries? With hindsight, no.
Did the best intelligence suggest that it was an immediate threat to USUK? No although there was some poor quality unsubstantiated intelligence that suggested Iraq was a threat.
Is that enough to go to war on? I don't think so but it's a matter of opinion at that point.


Adam Smith: US and UK governments have historically had no problem signing contracts with terrible regimes, just as long as they aren't openly hostile. We had just such a relationship with Saddam's Iraq for many years.

[DanS]

Would you care to articulate a policy

Come on. We're talking Roland here.

[Brundlefly]

Re: Bush's visit to Britain

Originally posted by Sandman

What are your feelings about Bush's visit to Britain?

I suggest that he dress very conservatively so as not to draw any unwanted attention from Prince Charles.

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Ned
MikeH, The way Iraq is coming around and the good will we have built up there is going to contribute to a seachange in the Islamic world for the better. Saudi Arabia is already moving towards democracy. They are having municipal elections soon. And, they have muzzled (removed) the most radical of the Wahhabi clerics.

Having a democratic Iraq next door to Iran has got to impact the pro-democracy movement there in a positive way.

None of the above would have happened had Saddam still been in power.

I believe that history will record the events of the last two years concerning Afghanistan and Iraq as the most important moves toward a more democratic and peaceful world since the fall of communism and perhaps since WWII.

You poor gullible propaganda recepticle, and you sound so earnest, like you really beleive this kind of stuff. Bless your little cotton socks.

[Solly]

I'm looking forward to his visit.

[MikeH]

Re: Re: Bush's visit to Britain

Originally posted by Feephi


I suggest that he dress very conservatively so as not to draw any unwanted attention from Prince Charles.

He should take advantage of the facilities in Buckingham Palace and ask for a nice relaxing massage.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by MikeH
I also think that both the US and the UK will benefit from a strong friendly government in the middle east because it might help bring stability to what is a very volatile region, very important to the world economy.

You know a communist would suspect that you were a greedy capitalist pig. Why give them the ammunition?

[DanS]

Who cares about the communists? There aren't that many of them nowadays.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by DanS
Who cares about the communists? There aren't that many of them nowadays.

They will be back. They always do.

[DanS]

Where will they be back? In the UK?