Zhukov or Guderian

[David Floyd]

That wouldn't be much of a contest. I mean, Budenny? Come on

[Hippi]

Guderian is da man!

He had less material.

[Imran Siddiqui]

what the crap does Israel have to do with it

I dunno, but apparently Israel's history classes about WW2 needs some sprucing up . Everyone has slammed you for your uninformed opinions on Rommel and Guderian. Those two, along with Zhukov and perhaps Patton are some of the greatest generals not only in WW2 but in modern warfare.

[Serb]

Originally posted by CerberusIV


My understanding (admittedly limited to Western sources) was that Tukhachevsky and his adherents formulated and expanded work begun by the Red Army in the early 1920's into an operational doctrine. When he and most of his associates were purged on Stalin's orders the concept was dropped, contributing to the poor performance of soviet forces during the initial german attacks in 1941. The idea was then resurrected and applied to good effect and remained the founding principle of Red Army operations.

Tukhachevsky wasn't the author of this concept. His enemy- cheif of "operational department of central HQ of Red Army" (I'm not sure I translated it properly) Vladimir Triandafilov was. Tukhachevsky was pretty ****ty strategist and theoretician. Look what kind of armaments he ordered for Red Army- slow multi towered heavy tanks and poorly armored light tanks (he was against t-34, btw), slow bombers, bad fighters, he agitated for absolutely stuipid idea of universal guns (anti-tank/anti-aircraft/infantry gun all in a single gun), but his major fault is complete ignoring of widespread use of radios in army. His mistakes in understanding of future war, forced Soviets to start the large program of reequipment of Red Army just before German invasion.
This concept of "theory of deep operation" wasn't dropped after his arest (once again it wasn't his concept). It was a part of Red Army's Charter of 1936. Zhukov used it versus Japanese in 1939 in Khalkin Gol.

Guderian was aware of the concept, he quotes it in one of his books.

Sure he was. Both Guderian and Manstein visited Soviet Union in 30th and studied it in Soviet military Academies.

[Imran Siddiqui]

he was against t-34, btw

Yikes... maybe he should have been purged just for that .

It's funny how many people rejected the T-34. It only turned out to the best tank in WW2.

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd
That wouldn't be much of a contest. I mean, Budenny? Come on

What's so funny David?
Budenny could be called one of the teachers of von Manstein. At least he had pretty high opinion about this Russian general.
I'm going from my memory, so don't ask me for a link, but I remember he wrote somwhere:
"We must remeber that it were Russians who came up first with idea of using massive mobile forces in offensive operations (feildmarshal Budenny)..."
Bunenny is a legandary general of Russian civil war.

"Vedi Budenny nas smelee v boi...
param-pa-pam,
param-paparam-pam-param..."
What a song!

[TheStinger]

One of the reasons that Rommel was short of oil was that the British kept disrupting his supplies. Surley that points to good British stratergy and not neccesarily German bad luck.

[CerberusIV]

Serb, take off the red tinted spectacles please.

When Tukhachevsky became Chief of Staff of the Red Army he ordered a review of armoured forces and doctrine in 1926 which lead to the 1929 Field Regulations setting out the Deep Battle concept. This was then refined and developed into Deep Operation and enshrined in the 1936 Regulations.

Voroshilov (described by Kruschev as "the biggest bag of **** in the army) played on Stalin's paranoia and in 1937 Tukhachevsky was arrested and shot. The following politicisation of the army led to the disbanding of the tank corps. Breaking up the units crucial to Deep Operation is pretty conclusive evidence of a move away from the concept. Zhukov's success at Khalkin Ghol wasn't really noticed in Moscow, Zhukov himself, like many other officers at the time, was trying not to be noticed and possibly shot.

The inferior equipment available to Soviet forces in 1941 was largely due to not having the industrial base in the 1920's to develop and test designs. The rearmament programme was triggered by deficiencies exposed against the Japanese (whose had aircraft proved superior) and the Finns. Deep Battle/Deep Operation were built around the prevailing tank designs of the time. During the 1920's and 1930's no army had a fast, manouverable, well armed and well protected tank. The T-34 was the first tank to be all those things at once. Until then everyone, British, French, German, Russian and American thought of a mixture of light, medium and heavy tanks each for a specific task.

The A-32 design, which eventually became the T-34 was only put to a conference on tank design in August 1938 so it is hard to see how Tukhachevsky could oppose a design that only originated after he was killed.


Wait! What am I doing? I'm trying to convince Serb he is wrong on Russian military history! I think I will go and develop a universal cure for cancer and initiate world peace, they will be easier to accomplish.

[Brundlefly]

Damn. You guys sent panag into hiding. This thread contains his most recent post..

[Shogun Gunner]

What?

You cannot stop the panag or the israeli civ.

Have a nice day

[SpencerH]

Its funny how every generation or so forgets and then 'discovers' the use of combined arms etc etc. Guderian didnt invent combined arms or blitzkrieg any more than Liddell-Hart, Napoleon, or a long list of military 'innovators' throughout history did.

Comparing Zhukov and Guderian is apples and oranges. AFAIK Guderian didnt command at the same level as Zhukov. You may as well compare Zhukov with Chesty Puller (Chesty wins hands down )

[Vince278]

Definitely Zhukov. A popular general surviving as long as he did under Stalin was an amazing feat in itself. I'm sure, of course, that the Banana could give Stalin and Hitler the slip as well.

[Serb]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Serb, take off the red tinted spectacles please.

Why should I?
I have a perfect vision and don't use any spectacles.

When Tukhachevsky became Chief of Staff of the Red Army he ordered a review of armoured forces and doctrine in 1926 which lead to the 1929 Field Regulations setting out the Deep Battle concept. This was then refined and developed into Deep Operation and enshrined in the 1936 Regulations.

Triandafilov created this concept not Tukhachevsky. Triandafilov was an artillery man. In 1926 Red Army's armored forces didn't exist. The mass production of first Soviet tank T-18 (Russian Renault) started at 1928. How he could order to review armored forces and doctrine, if there weren't such forces?

Voroshilov (described by Kruschev as "the biggest bag of **** in the army) played on Stalin's paranoia and in 1937 Tukhachevsky was arrested and shot. The following politicisation of the army led to the disbanding of the tank corps. Breaking up the units crucial to Deep Operation is pretty conclusive evidence of a move away from the concept.

Re-organisation of armored corps (mechcorpus- mechanized corps) started because of expeirence drawn from Spanish civil war. It has nothing common with arrest of Tukhachevsky.

Zhukov's success at Khalkin Ghol wasn't really noticed in Moscow, Zhukov himself, like many other officers at the time, was trying not to be noticed and possibly shot.

Yeah, right, his success wasn't noticed
That's why Stalin appointed Zhukov to be a cheif of staff of Red Army.

The inferior equipment available to Soviet forces in 1941 was largely due to not having the industrial base in the 1920's to develop and test designs.

Who is talking about 20's here? Were are talking about 30's, when Soviet industry produced about 25 000 tanks and when such designs as T-34 and KV were created.

The rearmament programme was triggered by deficiencies exposed against the Japanese (whose had aircraft proved superior) and the Finns.

Bullsh!t. Stalin's falcons kicked Japanese asses at Khalkin-Gol. Kill/loss ration was in soviet faivor.

Deep Battle/Deep Operation were built around the prevailing tank designs of the time. During the 1920's and 1930's no army had a fast, manouverable, well armed and well protected tank. The T-34 was the first tank to be all those things at once. Until then everyone, British, French, German, Russian and American thought of a mixture of light, medium and heavy tanks each for a specific task.

Right. And look what kind of crap Tukhachevsky ordered to produce for Red Army.
Heavy tank T-35: FIVE turrets, 3 guns, 4 MG, 11 crew members, 30kmph, couldn't climb a 15 degree hill, half of the crew couldn't escape the tank in case of emergency due to construction, the commander should reload the biggest gun, fire from mg and direct the fire from FIVE turrets. How the hell he could do it? Armor: 30mm (only a small plate at front was 50mm), not a problem for German 37mm gun from 500 meters. Weight -55 tonns. Cool tank for the breakthrought, isn't it?
There was also T-28. The same crap only a bit smaller. 3 turrets, 30 mm armor. How those tanks were suppose to penetrate enemy's defensive positions, how anyone could efficiently use such tanks is beyond me.
Light tank BT- max speed 86 rmph, armor 16-20 mm. Cool isn't it?
The moron who ordered those tank never thought that tanks move in columns after the battle and can't achieve such speed because of this. How supply cars and infantry should have follow tanks that drive at 86kmph speed is beyond me too. For this stiupid 86kmph figure, designers sucrificed armor thicknes.

And the same with everything what Tukhachevsky ordered for Red Army. Planes- I-15 created in 1934, produced up to 1939. In 1941- obsolete. German Me-109, created in 1935- one of the best fighters of WW2. Used up to 1945.
Guns- he was a proponent of "universal guns" (AA/IG/AT). Grabin- the famous Russian designer who created Soviet 76mm division gun and many others weapons, true legend among soviet weapon's constructors, said once- " another ten years of Tukhachevsky's rule, and he would destroy a Russian artillery".
Every peice of equipment created under Tukhachevsky rule was obsolete in 1941, some of them like T-35 were already obsolete even before their mass production started. German fought with weapons created in middle of 30's up untill the end of war. Stukas, Me, Pkfw-IV, etc. Everything what Tukhachevsky created at this time was obsolete at the beggining of war and soviets had to create absolutely new equipment.

The A-32 design, which eventually became the T-34 was only put to a conference on tank design in August 1938 so it is hard to see how Tukhachevsky could oppose a design that only originated after he was killed.

Koshkin (t-34 "father") started to build A-20 project in 1937. Tukhachevsky was against idea of medium well-protected tank. He liked his five turrets T-35 monsters and "paper" BT.

Wait! What am I doing? I'm trying to convince Serb he is wrong on Russian military history! I think I will go and develop a universal cure for cancer and initiate world peace, they will be easier to accomplish.

Right You'll do a great service for a humanity.
And you're absolutely correct, it will be much easier for you.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Zhukov's success at Khalkin Ghol wasn't really noticed in Moscow, Zhukov himself, like many other officers at the time, was trying not to be noticed and possibly shot.

Being noticed by Stalin for his successful service is a good thing. Being noticed as becoming popular and a possible threat is what will get you shot. Zhukov, and others at the time, were walking a thin tightrope.

[Serb]

Blah...I know this myth. I did believed it long time ago. When I made some research about the subject I'll start to see a bit different picture.