Dubya signs anti-abortion bill

[rah]

We're all allowed to have our opinions.

Everytime I read about how the procedure is done, I get disgusted. Women deserve a choice, but this one is a bad choice and I don't see this as a viable option. It should never get to this. But I will resist further attempts to remove the concept of choice for women having children. My opinion.

[Sava]

Originally posted by rah
We're all allowed to have our opinions.

Everytime I read about how the procedure is done, I get disgusted. Women deserve a choice, but this one is a bad choice and I don't see this as a viable option. It should never get to this. But I will resist further attempts to remove the concept of choice for women having children. My opinion.

This procedure isn't a choice for the woman though... the doctor makes this decisions in the middle of the other procedure if there is risk to the woman.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Sava
what troll? that's the title of the MSNBC article... write them and complain about the troll

edit: oh yeah, I replaced Bush with Dubya...

Yeah... no Sava troll here... right...

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ming





Yeah... no Sava troll here... right...

pathetic... I post a news story, give my opinion, back it up with sources, and it's a troll... I guess everything you disagree with is a troll right?

Go write MSNBC if you don't like the title of their article, but don't call me a troll when I'm not trolling.

[Ming]

Not trolling...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

You never try to postion Bush in a the worst light possible... not you...

HAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHA

If a democrat had made this statement in a press conference, would you have posted it....

NAHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Imran Siddiqui]

Even as a pro-choice proponent, I'm pleased that a law that will prohibit

.... in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured....

has been signed. WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.


I don't see it as slipping down the slope. I see it as prohibiting an inhumane form of abortion.

Late term abortions that are not required to save the life or health of the mother should be outlawed. I mean, really, it is REALLY coming very close to infanticide (some would argue it is infanticide). Hell, the baby is partially concieved and then killed!

Unfortunetly this law, as signed is unconstitutional, there is no doubt. First it makes no exception for the woman's health. Second, it may be too broad. It doesn't only apply to D&X or D&E after viability, but may also extend pre-viability. Sava is correct that Stenberg v. Carhart makes this law unconstitution, when it is basically the EXACT SAME LAW... geez, dumb Congress.

All they had to do was to make an exception for mother's health and restrict the ban to after viability (ie, third trimester) and they would have been good to go (ie, Constitutional).

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by rah
Even as a pro-choice proponent, I'm pleased that a law that will prohibit

.... in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured....

The fetus is already dead at this stage of the procedure. According to the ob/gyn text in front of me, the "evacuation of the intracranial contents" is to facilitate vaginal delivery.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Sava
you are wrong... and that's an ignorant statement.

Ewwwww. Good come back.

You ever think of running for office?

[Jon Miller]

you know that we are like the only 1st world country that allowed this

and none of the countries where this is outlawed have lost their right to abortion

face, we have been barbaric because of the blindness of abortion advocates

Jon Miller

[Arrian]

Just saw this, figure I should post it. Please note that I'm not advocating one way or the other at this point, since I've only skimmed the article (and frankly, abortion debates piss me off):

LINCOLN, Neb. - A federal judge in Nebraska blocked implementation of a federal ban on certain late-term abortions Wednesday, less than an hour after President Bush (news - web sites) signed the ban into law.

U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf issued a temporary restraining order against the law after a three-hour hearing on a lawsuit in Nebraska brought by abortion-rights supporters.


He said his order would apply only to the four doctors who filed the lawsuit, but the ruling could extend beyond Nebraska because the physicians are licensed to practice in Alabama, Georgia, Iowa, New York, South Carolina and Virginia.

Kopf cited concerns that the law did not contain an exception for preserving the health of the woman seeking the abortion.

"While it is also true that Congress found that a health exception is not needed, it is, at the very least, problematic whether I should defer to such a conclusion when the Supreme Court has found otherwise," Kopf said.

Bush signed the measure into law Wednesday at a ceremony in Washington, saying that for years, "a terrible form of violence has been directed against children who are inches from birth while the law looked the other way."

The law would ban certain types of abortion procedures on fetuses that are roughly 14 weeks or older that abortion opponents call "partial-birth abortion."

Supporters of the measure contend it applies only to a procedure done late in pregnancy that is never necessary to protect the health of the mother.

Under the new law, a woman could not undertake the procedure even if her health was at risk or the child would be born with ailments.

Kopf had expressed serious reservations about the new law during the hearing, saying, "It seems to me the law is highly suspect, if not a per se violation of the Constitution."

He said the law appears to have a "serious vagueness problem," and that the congressional record of debate on the bill did not reflect an objective presentation of facts.

"If the act takes effect, physicians across the country will risk imprisonment for providing abortion care in accordance with their best medical judgment," said Priscilla Smith, an attorney for the Center for Reproductive Rights, which filed the lawsuit.

Justice Department (news - web sites) lead attorney Anthony Coppolino told Kopf that he should show deference to Congress' findings that the abortion procedure has not been studied enough to prove it is necessary.

"I'm mindful of the court's concerns ... but we ask that you give consideration to the deep concerns that were expressed by Congress," Coppolino said. "It is an abhorrent and useless procedure."

Kopf replied by voicing his concern that he could find no record that any doctor who performs abortions in the second and third trimester testified before Congress on late-term abortions.

"Where were the docs who do this procedure?" Kopf asked. "Isn't that important if Congress was really interested in knowing about this procedure?"

At the White House, Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said the president believes the new law will be upheld.

"We believe it is constitutional and you could expect that we would vigorously defend this law in the courts," McClellan said.

It was a challenge by one of the four doctors in the suit that led to the Supreme Court overturning Nebraska's so-called partial-birth abortion ban in 2000. The high court said the law and others like it passed by other states were an "undue burden" on women's rights.

[Lincoln]

The "health" exception was not included because "health" was used as an excuse to go ahead with the proceduree even if the woman said that she was depressed or did not have a positive self esteem. Now days any mental discomfort could be called a health issue. That was just another deceptive term inserted by people who want the right to abortion in any case, at any time and for any reason without any consideration for the child even if he is three forths out of the womb, wiggling his toes and fingers and ready to take his first breath. There is no excuse for killing these kids.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sava
the fact is, this decision should be left to the doctors, not some corrupt politician

There's another kind?

[Lincoln]

And I suppose that there is no such thing as a corrupt doctor. What draws "doctors" into this lucrative field? Could it be the money???

[Lincoln]

"Every woman has these same two questions: First, "Is it a baby?" "No" the counselor assures her. "It is a product of conception (or a blood clot, or a piece of tissue)" Even though these counselors see six week babies daily, with arms, legs and eyes that are closed like newborn puppies, they lie to the women. How many women would have an abortion, if they told them the truth?"
--Carol Everett, former owner of two clinics and director of four
"A Walk Through an Abortion Clinic" by Carol Everett ALL About Issues magazine Aug-Sept 1991, p 117
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"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to abort immediately."
--Judy W., former office manager of the second largest abortion clinic in El Paso, Texas
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"We tried to avoid the women seeing them [the fetuses] They always wanted to know the sex, but we lied and said it was too early to tell. It's better for the women to think of the fetus as an 'it.'
--Abortion clinic worker Norma Eidelman quoted in Rachel Weeping p 34
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"The counselor at our clinic would cry with the girls at the drop of a hat. She would find their weakness and work on it. The women were never given any alternatives. They were told how much trouble it is to have a baby."
--former abortion worker Debra Harry, quoted in the film "Meet the Abortion Providers" 1989
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"When discussing the sonogram, you are supposed to tell the client that it is a measurement as far as the pregnancy is concerned, but not a measure of the fetal head or anything like that."
--Rosemary Petruso, on her training to be an abortion counselor. Her story appeared in the St. Louis Review and was also quoted in "Women Exploited: The Other Victims of Abortion" Paula Ervin, editor. Huntington: Our Sunday Visitor, 1985
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"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like at a certain point in the pregnancy: Was it a baby yet? Even as early as 12 weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say 'It's not a baby yet. It's just tissue, like a clot.'"
--Kathy Sparks told in "The Conversion of Kathy Sparks" by Gloria Williamson, Christian Herald Jan 1986 p 28
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"It is when I am holding a plastic uterus in one hand, a suction tube in the other, moving them together in imitation of the scrubbing to come, that woman ask the most secret question. I am speaking in a matter-of-fact voice about 'the tissue' and 'the contents' when the woman suddenly catches my eye and says 'How big is the baby now?' These words suggest a quiet need for definition of the boundaries being drawn. It isn't so odd, after all, that she feels relief when I describe the growing buds bulbous shape, its miniature nature. Again, I gauge, and sometimes lie a little, weaseling around its infantile features until its clinging power slackens."
--abortion worker Sallie Tisdale "We Do Abortions Here" Oct 1987 Harpers Magazine p 68
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"Vital signs should be observed regularly, and a Doppler [for listening to the fetal heartbeat] inaudible to the patient should be used at intervals to determine the presence or absence of fetal heart tones.. This [informed consent] is a controversial area, but most professionals in the field feel that it is not advisable for patients to view the products of conception, to be told the sex of the fetus, or to be informed of a multiple pregnancy"
--Abortionist Warren Hern in "Abortion Practice" J.B. Lippincott Company, 1984 pgs 145 and 304
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"Sonography in connection with induced abortion may have psychological hazards. Seeing a blown-up, moving image of the embryo she is carrying can be distressing to a woman who is about to undergo an abortion, Dr. Sally Faith Dorfman noted. She stressed that the screen should be turned away from the patient."
--"Obstetrics and Gynecology News" editorial February 15-28, 1986
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"95 percent of women who have had abortions said that their Planned Parenthood counselors gave them " . . . little or no information about the fetus which the abortion would destroy."
--From Aborted Women-Silent No More by David Reardon, Crossway Books, 1987
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"Now, the baby I aborted was eleven weeks old, and can you imagine what this did to me when I saw this baby with the hands and face, sucking his thumb? And they told me it was a cluster of cells!"
--Carole K.
State Director of Women Exploited By Abortion. From Women Exploited, which is a sampling of the stories of WEBA (Women Exploited by Abortion) chapter members.
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"I have seen hundreds of patients in my office who have had abortions and were just lied to by the abortion counselor. Namely 'This is less painful than having a tooth removed. It is not a baby.' Afterwards, the woman sees Life magazine and breaks down and goes into a major depression."
--Psychologist Vincent Rue quoted in "Abortion Inc" David Kupelian and Jo Ann Gasper, New Dimensions, October 1991 p 16

[Lincoln]

"The first time, I felt like a murderer, but I did it again and again and again, and now, 20 years later, I am facing what happened to me as a doctor and as a human being. Sure, I got hard. Sure, the money was important. And oh, it was an easy thing, once I had taken the step, to see the women as animals and the babies as just tissue."
--abortionist quoted from a radio talk show by John Rice in "Abortion" Litt D. Murfreesboro, TN.
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"I have never known a woman who, after her baby was born, was not overjoyed that I had not killed it."
--Abortionist Aleck Bourne "A Doctor Speaks" London Express, Jan 25
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"We know that its killing, but the state permits killing under certain circumstances"
--Dr. Neville Sender, abortionist
"Even now I feel a little peculiar about it, because as a physician I was trained to conserve life, and here I am destroying it."
--abortionist
"There was not one [doctor] who at some point in the questioning did not say "This is murder."'
--Magda Denes on her two years of research done for her book In Necessity and Sorrow; Life and Death Inside an Abortion Clinic.
"You know there is something in there alive that you are killing"
--another abortionist interviewed by Denes
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"Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet....there is a great difference between the intellectual support of a woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."
--Judith Fetrow, former clinic worker from San Francisco quoted in "Meet the Abortion Providers III" from a taped conference in Chicago 4/3/93
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..the emotional turmoil that the procedure inevitably wreaks on the physicians and staff...There is no possibility of denial of an act of destruction by the operator...the sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current."
--Abortionist quoted in "Meeting of American Association of Planned Parenthood Physicians" OB GYN News P 196
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Quoted in Melody Green and Sharon Bennett "The Crime of Being Alive: Abortion, Euthanasia, Infanticide" p 3
"Remember, there is a human being at the other end of the table taking that kid apart. We've had a couple of guys drinking too much, taking drugs, even a suicide or two."
--Dr. Julius Butler, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Minnesota Medical School
"Arms, legs, and chests come out of the forceps. It's not a sight for everybody"
--Dr. William Benbow Thompson at the University of California at Irvine
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"Abortion Practice" by Warren Hern, M.D., Boulder Colorado Abortionist published in 1984 by the J.B. Lippenott Company. Hern performs abortions up until the 4th month of pregnancy
"The procedure changes significantly at 21 weeks because fetal tissues become much more cohesive and difficult to dismember" p 154
"A long curved Mayo scissors may be necessary to decapitate and dismember the fetus." - 154
"The aggregate fetal tissue is weighted, then the following fetal parts are measured, foot length, knee to heel length, and biparietal diameter" p 164
"Television interviews in particular should focus on the public issue involved (right to confidential and professional medical care, freedom of choice and so forth) and not on the specific details of the procedure." p 323
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"Nobody wants to perform abortions after ten weeks, because by then you see the features of the baby, hands, feet. It's really barbaric."
--abortionist quoted in M.D. Doctors Talk About Themselves by John Pekkanen p 93
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"I was for abortion, I thought it was a woman's right to terminate pregnancy she did not want. Now I'm not so sure. I am a student nurse nearing the end of my OB-GYN rotation at a major metropolitan hospital and teaching center. It wasn't until I saw what abortion really involves that I changed my mind. After the first week in the abortion clinic several people in my clinical group were shaky about their previously positive feelings about abortion. This new attitude resulted from our actually seeing a Prostaglandin abortion, one similar in nature to the widely used saline abortion. . . this method is being used for terminations of pregnancies of sixteen weeks and over. I used to find rationales. the fetus isn't real. Abdomens aren't really very swollen. It isn't 'alive.' No more excuses...I am a member of the health profession and members of my class are now ambivalent about abortion. I now know a great deal more about what is involved in the issue. Women should perceive fully what abortion is; how destructive an act it is both for themselves and their unborn child. Whatever psychological coping mechanisms are employed during the process, the sight of a fetus in a hospital bedpan remains the final statement."
Quoted in "The Zero People: Essays on Life" by Jeff Lane Hensley, editor. Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983