Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


So it's all good as long as it is foreigners. We shall remember the next time we have trouble with those complaining american consulate folks.

But anyway, it doesn't matter. Under the Guantanamo logic, they can arrest Mister LOTM. And all his protests that he is a US citizen are useless, cause they'll say "prove it", and you won't get a day in court to prove it. And if all works well, people won't even know what happened to you.

But why bother? It's only foreigners. Mostly. For now.

Actually, IIRC, there are only two pending cases of US citizens being held outside the judicial system. One was a naturalized US citizen of Saudi birth captured outside the US in combat operations and the other is Padilla. I'm not sure the current status of the Padilla case, as the government may have appealed and the matter may be stayed, but the last judicial order entered in re Padilla was an order by Federal District Court judge Michael Mukasey for the government to grant Padilla access to counsel.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sikander


Actually I have to disagree. I think a lot of AQ is amateur hour, and what was built with little fear of dismantling previously has been placed under a lot of stress lately. The more secure your organization is (in the manner you suggest above) the more likely that recent losses throughout the organization are going to sever communications entirely with operational cells. Some of these cells can even be set to work for us, if we've managed to secretly grab their handler and break him. Aside from the value we may get in this way, there is also the value that we get because the enemy can't be sure. Handing them a list is a major boon.

They already have the ****ing lists. The ICRC has been allowed to visit Gitmo, and many of the Gitmo detainees have been allowed to write letters to their families, which have been delivered back to ICRC personnel.

wrt Al Qaeda organization, I'd assume (and any good paranoid would also) that there are two parts of AQ, a bunch of expendible fanatics with little technical sophistication, and a non-operating group that have the technical and intel capabilities. It's not much of a deal to have a monitor unknown to either cell members or their courier, who does nothing else than report for reasons he doesn't know on the status of certain individuals.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by techumseh
Well, we could trade points and counterpoints forever, I guess. One thing I don't get about (many) Americans is how closely they identify with their government. Even when it lies to them, takes them to war illegaly and DECREASES their security, they feel they have to rally 'round the flag. It's WE this, and WE that.

This is very typical of American media as well. I've seen many US news anchors talk about WE in Iraq, OUR strategy, US against THEM, as if they're part of the team. This would not be accepted in Canada, nor I suspect, in many other western countries where some semblance of objectivity is required. The BBC is a great example.

I don't think it's so much of a case of "people identifying with their government" as it is American English vernacular. "We" and " us" are general two letter, one syllable pronouns, "you" is a general three letter, one syllable pronoun, and "they" or them are general four letter, one syllable pronouns. It really saves a lot of work to use the small word. I don't "identify" with the US government at all (I live in Mexico ), but "we" or "us" is a fairly simple substitute for a big long disclaimer. And I do know, from having spent time on the receiving end, that the *******s in question, the beloved enemy, isn't much inclinded to sort out the politics and personal views of the average Crusader infidel.

BTW, here is a link to the CBC website page for their documentary "Conspiracy Theories", which aired this week. http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/index.html It includes interviews with former US and French intellegence officials and the chief investigator for the US Congressional report on 9/11. Not your average wearers of aluminum fashion accessories, they nonetheless raise very interesting questions about links between the Bush and Bin Laden families going back many years and the handling of 9/11, both pre and post, by the Bush administration.

I'm sure there are some interesting connections - big money families, one in oil, and the other in construction in a place that has a lot of oil. I'd be more surprised if there was no collection considering the common economic and industrial backgrounds.

A second (and final point). We have the advantage of seeing the entire history of Nazi Germany at once. We know how it turned out and all the horrors therein. In 1932 or even 1939 the German people could not. Some ranted and raved about what lay ahead (tinfoil hats?). Most Germans, even those that opposed the Nazi's, couldn't see it. America's experience with the Bushies is still in it's early times. But IMHO, the trends are there, and they are ominous.

Anyone who read Mein Kampf and didn't think then and there that Addi's brain ought to be pickled and studied by science wasn't really paying attention. Same with anyone who saw Rohm and the SA. In retrospect, you had to be wearing a tinfoil hat not to have a sense that there was serious trouble going, and that if these people weren't stopped, they sure wouldn't stop themselves.

We're orders of magnitude away from any similar situation.

So I'm back to the farm. 'Later.

Happy harvesting.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Pekka
Alexander's Horse, agreed. The US has the most powerful army, strongest and professional. Still, it seems to rely so much on the support of the home and the media. Meaning, the general outcry in the states is unbelievable when soldiers get killed. By this I do not mean to say that it's not bad when soldiers die. It's bad.
Or that one soldier doesn't count. Every life counts.

But you know what I mean. I could think about general public outcry when the number of casualties is 20 000.
But everything under few thousand is the way business is done, and there's no hiding from it, and that it will always happen in the longer run. And this I see as weakness too. Media should be kept in leash when it comes to portraying casualties in too much emotional way during war. It has nothing to do with free press or limiting it. Victims should not be given faces. Let the relatvies and friends grief in piece and don't make a big fuzz about it, because it starts looking like the war is going bad, when in fact the losses are still unbelievable low.

1)The US has a very weak minded army. From what I hear, their boot camps are too P***y, and the women are not held up to nearly the same standards as the men. This means effectively less brainwashing, which means more thinking for themselves, which in this war is incredibly dangerous. 29 attempted suicides so far. 19 successfully.
2) It is very important to the family of the soldier that is killed. This is what so infuriates me about war supporters, to them casualties are just numbers. But they are not just numbers, every single digit in that number represents 0-9 people, and every single quantity of that 0-9 means the actaul life of someone has been removed from a social circle, familial circle, community circle, and the pain associated with it.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by NeOmega


1)The US has a very weak minded army. From what I hear, their boot camps are too P***y, and the women are not held up to nearly the same standards as the men. This means effectively less brainwashing, which means more thinking for themselves, which in this war is incredibly dangerous. 29 attempted suicides so far. 19 successfully.

Since you refer to it as "boot camp" then you've demonstrated you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

2) It is very important to the family of the soldier that is killed. This is what so infuriates me about war supporters, to them casualties are just numbers. But they are not just numbers, every single digit in that number represents 0-9 people, and every single quantity of that 0-9 means the actaul life of someone has been removed from a social circle, familial circle, community circle, and the pain associated with it.

Every casualty statistic has human beings behind it. Your point? Statistics of those murdered by *******s like the Hussein regime, and any number of other murdering *******s also have human beings behind it. So for that matter do crime victims, peace officers, famine and flood and disaster victims, etc. So do political prisoners and people dying of cancer. Again, your point?

The justification for the war, over the long term, stands or fails on a lot more issues than casualty count.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Since you refer to it as "boot camp" then you've demonstrated you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Ok. I only live in the most densely populated military per capita county in the United States. Only four of my cousins, and about 6 of my friends have gone through "Basic Training" ie BOOT CAMP. I have heard enough about boot camp... I mean "basic training" to know that it is incredibly weak, except perhaps USMC boot camp. But Army, NAVY, AF and CG boot camp... I mean basic training, has sounded incredibly easy, as reported by those who have attended.

Every casualty statistic has human beings behind it. Your point? Statistics of those murdered by *******s like the Hussein regime, and any number of other murdering *******s also have human beings behind it. So for that matter do crime victims, peace officers, famine and flood and disaster victims, etc. So do political prisoners and people dying of cancer. Again, your point?

I hate having to repeat myself, but here is my point:

It is very important to the family of the soldier that is killed.

They are not just statistics, and if the war is unjust, as I believe it is, every single life lost is murder, and this is the way I feel. Do not ask my point is again because I cannot be any more clear.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by NeOmega
Ok. I only live in the most densely populated military per capita county in the United States. Only four of my cousins, and about 6 of my friends have gone through "Basic Training" ie BOOT CAMP. I have heard enough about boot camp... I mean "basic training" to know that it is incredibly weak, except perhaps USMC boot camp. But Army, NAVY, AF and CG boot camp... I mean basic training, has sounded incredibly easy, as reported by those who have attended.

Maybe they were REMFs. What was their MOS? I didn't find Basic/AIT for infantry too bad, but then I was in shape. Jump school was a bit tougher, and Ranger school was a mother****er. As far as Basic/AIT being "incredibly weak" why don't you come back and tell us after you finish as honor graduate of your training platoon?

And once again, the Army does not have "boot camp" and I don't really give a **** what the sissy services like the squids and the air farce do.

I hate having to repeat myself, but here is my point:

They are not just statistics, and if the war is unjust, as I believe it is, every single life lost is murder, and this is the way I feel. Do not ask my point is again because I cannot be any more clear.

Whether the war is unjust or not is subjective, and always will be. Meanwhile, they were volunteers. As I was, as was my brother who died as a result of 'Nam.

And I wasn't really asking your point, it was rhetorical.

[Spiffor]

I haven't followed the whole thread, far from it, but I'd have a little quibble about the "murder" thing.
To shot down a military helicopter is an act of war. Even though the passengers of the helo had no chance to defend themselves. The only way you could call it "murder", is if you call surgical strikes on Iraqi barracks during the war "murder" as well. Most dead Iraqis, civilians and soldiers alike, had little to no chance to defend themselves from the American attacks. Exactly like the passengers of the helo.

[Ned]

MtG, do you think we should go to 12 divisions now?

[MOBIUS]

Despite needing more troops in Iraq, I think overall US troop numbers will fall as Bush begins to cave into public pressure...

Basically the US needs to take apart places like Falluja brick by brick looking for the militants and that requires manpower. Much as I am against the excuses and cack-handed handling of this war, a greater effort now will pay dividends later and hopefully put Iraq back in the hands of the Iraqi people quicker.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I haven't followed the whole thread, far from it, but I'd have a little quibble about the "murder" thing.
To shot down a military helicopter is an act of war. Even though the passengers of the helo had no chance to defend themselves. The only way you could call it "murder", is if you call surgical strikes on Iraqi barracks during the war "murder" as well. Most dead Iraqis, civilians and soldiers alike, had little to no chance to defend themselves from the American attacks. Exactly like the passengers of the helo.

I consider all deaths murder in this war.

back off topic:
Not only is the military weak minded, so is the American populace. In vietnam it was not the innocent Vietnamese citizens being slaughtered, but our own casualties, that finally brought it to an end. The same will ring true for Iraq. Bush made one of many fatal miscalculations in thinking support for this war would continue as U.S. troops die in larger and larger numbers. We will have to pull out, because the american public will demand it. If the war were just would this be the case? I don't know, but you will be real hard to find "American resolve" on the issue of losing sons to protect oil pipelines and Iraqi power stations. "Grandpa faught to defeat the Nazis, my son if fighting to defeat oil pipeline sabotage....." Naw, the American populace is weak minded, and has a short attention span. This is really common knowledge.

[Dinner]

denied the status of Prisoners of War

Ignorance. Appalling, unbearable ignorance.

Techumseh, you don't know the first thing about the Geneva or Hague conventions do you? I truly think universal compulsory military service would improve the citizenry; one reason is because while in basic training you are forced to read, memorize, and understand all of the basic tenants of both of those treaties. You clearly do not have any of those things.

[uh Clem]

lord of the mark --

yeah i got the idea. I dont happen to believe that they are using this as a first step to an authoritarian system. If I did I would oppose it right now. But I dont. I think they sincerely are using it as a weapon against terrorism, and thats all. I dont say this out of love for the admin - I voted against Bush in 2000. But I dont think they are authoritarians. You may disagree.

Here's a misuse of powers:
PATRIOT ACT: Law's use causing concerns
Use of statute in corruption case unprecedented, attorneys contend

("The law was intended for activities related to terrorism and not to naked women..." )

I've seen other instances of the USA Patriot act being misused recently. DOJ says they should be free to use all tools available to them.

After Bush's tough talk aboout Cuba several weeks ago, DOJ said they would use anti-terrorist powers against people traveling to Cuba, including tourists. You may believe they're not authoritarians, but there's little evidence to justify that view.

[Dinner]

I have to agree that the Patriot act was never intended to be used against tourists.

[Lord Merciless]

Fighting murderous thugs like Al-Qaeda requires extra-ordinary efforts. Incessant lawyerings are no use here.