Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by St Leo


Hmm. Their ex-roster may be militant, but it is not necessarily Ba'athist.

If they were the enforcement arm of the enforcement arm of the Baath party, and personally swore oaths of loyalty, then I'm not really interested in semantic disctinctions. Their brains will look the same on the wall.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


The slant towards the MPs, Transport and Civil Affairs types takes the line company casualty rates down, but I haven't seen any type of organizational breakdown. The thing is that there's nothing so far that indicates we're seeing large scale resistance, just a fairly small to moderate number who are getting some operational tempo established.

I've seen some comment about the growing sophistication of the ambushes - killing zones, cut offs etc. well planned. The withdrawal of killing parties covered by mortar fire. That last part got people's attention.

It suggests organised resistance and well drilled military style ops. Not a good sign for the future unless the source is rooted out. I haven't noticed any "commanders" of this resistance apprehended yet.

[Ted Striker]

yeah that's what i'm saying

it's time to yank some special forces out of africa

and send them to find these **** heads and kill them

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
MTG do you buy the theory that if we can locate the ringleaders and either kill them or jail them, that most of this will stop?

Not really, no. Two reasons - one is there's no indication of large scale command and control in most of the areas these guys are operating. It's an IED here, an RPG there, some opportunistic small arms fire. I think it's spreading not due to larger scales of operations or command persona, but due to the fact that every success goes through the popular grapevine, and more people are encouraged to act.

Second thing is we tend too much in this country (in the war on drugs, organized crime, and in warfighting) to concentrate a lot of resources on decapitation. In reality, organizations grow new heads, and/or learn to function without heads. But if you remove the arms and the legs and the viscera, the head can't do much on it's own, whether you find it or not.

That's why I think we need to up the manpower, but not tie the newly arrived units (all light infantry/airborne) to physical occupation zones. I think we also need to free up 101 ABD and replace it with another heavy division, attach 25 LID (Tropical Lightning) to XVIII Airborne Corps, and bring 82 ABD from brigade to divisional strength, and give XVIII Airborne Corps the operational responsibility to move into one hot city or sector at a time, and shut the **** down. 30-40,000 new troops spread out is an increase in overall density of only 20-25%. 30-40,000 new light and airmobile troops concentrated in a trouble spot for 2-3 weeks at a time, then moved elsewhere as needed) is an increase in density of hundreds of times in those trouble spots. Fallujah has been a pain in the ass from the get go, so we need to start there.

Bush will never do it though, because increasing the force in country and going to a large, concentrated reaction force would be an admission that the present plans and policy aren't working.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


I've seen some comment about the growing sophistication of the ambushes - killing zones, cut offs etc. well planned. The withdrawal of killing parties covered by mortar fire. That last part got people's attention.

It suggests organised resistance and well drilled military style ops. Not a good sign for the future unless the source is rooted out. I haven't noticed any "commanders" of this resistance apprehended yet.

Which is good platoon level tactics, supported by a mortar squad from your weapons company. That's the level at which we integrate ops like that. So maybe they're fat and have a company level guy available instead of just an LT or a good platoon sergeant.

[Alexander's Horse]

The other thing was the indirect fire support was accurate and effective - that suggests 2 - 3 layers of command for some of the convoy ambushes.

[Kirnwaffen]

it's time to yank some special forces out of africa

You'd hardly have to yank them from anywhere. Almost the entire 10 SF is sitting around at Carson.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
The other thing was the indirect fire support was accurate and effective - that suggests 2 - 3 layers of command for some of the convoy ambushes.

Depends - are they using 60's, 82's or 120's? They have maps, they have the luxury of knowing transport routes and being able to survey and pre-register their tubes without advance firings, and I'm sure Saddam managed to find some money out of all those sanctions for portable GPS receivers for the officers of his politically reliable units.

It's still a platoon level op.

[Alexander's Horse]

jesus if they were using 120's......

[MichaeltheGreat]

They wouldn't need to bother with the "ambush" side of things if they could accurately bring 120's on command. To the extent they're using mortars to cover, I'd assume they're using light infantry mortars from rooftops with LOS, or using medium mortars from modified truck beds.

[Case]

Out of interest, why were the troops being transported by helicopter in the first place? Is this an indication that the road between Fallujah and Baghdad is really unsafe?

[Kirnwaffen]

Out of interest, why were the troops being transported by helicopter in the first place? Is this an indication that the road between Fallujah and Baghdad is really unsafe?

I would guess that it's an indication that the R&R area is a good distance from Bagdhad.

[Case]

Yeah - the United States. AFAIK, the troops were being moved from Fallujah to Baghdad airport for a flight home. Given that the distance between the two cities is less then 100 km, it seems curious that they traveled by helicopter.

[Ned]

I assume if MtG were emperor, we still be in Vietnam searching for the enemy tunnels and never doing anything decisive to win the war. If the population supports the resistance, it can go on indefinitely.

Also, the fact that the resistance is centered in the Sunni triangle indicates that the people who are doing this are he Ba'athists even if they are getting support from al Qaeda.

If Saddam is captured, we may have a chance to move on. But I doubt that that will be sufficient. We have to have a new Iraqi government with both the resources and the balls to do what is necessary to win.

I understand we are considering reactivating some of the Iraqi army. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They wouldn't need to bother with the "ambush" side of things if they could accurately bring 120's on command. To the extent they're using mortars to cover, I'd assume they're using light infantry mortars from rooftops with LOS, or using medium mortars from modified truck beds.

yeah i assume light mortars probably 82's which would be the most common.

but platoon or company its disturbing that it can be described like that, in those mil terms