Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties

[Gatekeeper]

Lemmings.

[KrazyHorse]

CBC news is also claiming that in addition to the 15 dead in the chopper and one dead in a separate incident that there are reports of 8 other American deaths today which have not been confirmed by US military sources.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/11/02/iraq_031102

There are also reports of as many as nine Americans being killed in three other incidents around Iraq. Only one of those deaths has been confirmed by military sources.

[Ned]

Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

IMO, we could increase troop levels to two million and still not end the Ba'athist resistance. The only way we can end it is for the Iraqi's themselves to join the fight against the Ba'athist. We have to pull out and be invisible.

I think Bush is falling into Johnson's trap of turning a local war into a US war. True, in this case, we started the war, but we need to end in the same way we ended the Vietnam war. "Vietnamization II."

Israel faces the same problem. Despite enormous firepower advantages, they will never defeat the Palestinian resistance. What Israel needs to do is somehow get the Palestinians themselves to fight the terrorists on behalf of a new Palestinian state.

[Dis]

easier said than done

[Theben]

Originally posted by Dissident
so you're saying all muslims are threats to the western world.


interesting.

No, I'm saying that nuking an Islamic nation, especially one as holy to muslims as Iraq, would rouse a huge upsurge in terrorists from all muslim lands.

[Alexander's Horse]

360 dead so far. The Pentagon says there's 7 wounded for every KIA.

Let's see, 3 x 7 is 21 = 2100; 6 x 7 = 420

2100 plus 420 is 2520

2520 plus 360 is 2880 total casualties thus far.

That's quite a lot, over a full year about 5000 casualties.

How many troops are there? 150,000?

That would give a casualty rate of about 3%.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

If there are any live WMD, they're TOAB without access to delivery systems, so if you have one, you have the other nearby. In other words, artillery rounds aren't likely to be found where the guns are. There are also strict handling and storage procedures, to keep the rounds both safe and viable. I doubt the Iraqis with access to that hardware were inclined to half-ass it, or were improperly trained.

IMO, we could increase troop levels to two million and still not end the Ba'athist resistance.

We don't have two million troops, and even if we did, we could shut down the *******s for far less.

The only way we can end it is for the Iraqi's themselves to join the fight against the Ba'athist. We have to pull out and be invisible.

(a) The Baathists have run the dump for 30 yeas - they have made sure that thos who are best armed, and best supported, are those who are loyal and committed to the party, by the blood on their hands, if not the blood in their veins.

(b) Until that disparity in weapons, support and training is cured, the US is the only stronger force on the ground. We're stuck there - if anyone doesn't have the huevos for it, too damn bad. Hoo-ah!

(c) Any move we make to become "invisible" not only encourages the *******s, it demoralizes our supporters and makes them think back to 1991, when we didn't support a rebellion we never authorized or bought into, and they paid the price. The last thing they're going to do now is pick up our slack if we show signs of being ready to cut and run because we don't have the balls to stick it out and win.

I think Bush is falling into Johnson's trap of turning a local war into a US war. True, in this case, we started the war, but we need to end in the same way we ended the Vietnam war. "Vietnamization II."

This was a US war from the beginning, and our fearless leaders were so sold on that shock and awe horse**** they didn't imagine any other alternatives. The way we "ended" the Vietnam war was to accomplish nothing but to set ourselves up for a strategic defeat. But this time, there is a larger enemy that wants a lot more than what Bac Ho, Mao and Brezhnev hoped to gain.

Israel faces the same problem. Despite enormous firepower advantages, they will never defeat the Palestinian resistance. What Israel needs to do is somehow get the Palestinians themselves to fight the terrorists on behalf of a new Palestinian state.

Harvest time up there in the Santa Cruz mountains, Ned?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
360 dead so far. The Pentagon says there's 7 wounded for every KIA.

Let's see, 3 x 7 is 21 = 2100; 6 x 7 = 420

2100 plus 420 is 2520

2520 plus 360 is 2880 total casualties thus far.

That's quite a lot, over a full year about 5000 casualities.

How many troops are there? 150,000?

That would give a casualty rate of about 3%.

Which would ordinarily be about 10-12 percent in the line companies, and .5 percent or so amongst the REMFs, but we're having heavier than normal proportions of casualties in Transport, MP and Civil Affairs units.

[KrazyHorse]

Isn't that what you'd expect from this type of resistance?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ned
Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

Why are we assuming these are Ba'athists? Unless I missed something, the Ba'athist regime with whatever supporters it had evaporated away in the spring.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Which would ordinarily be about 10-12 percent in the line companies, and .5 percent or so amongst the REMFs, but we're having heavier than normal proportions of casualties in Transport, MP and Civil Affairs units.

10-12% would be very high for an occupation/police action.

I've been trying to get a fix on the intensity - its higher than Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan for that matter, which is a bit of surprise. Its definitely much lower than Vietnam - thus far at least.

Those long supply lines must be a real b*tch. Presumably most supplies have to be trucked in.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yes, the ISSS, SRG, and Saddam Fedayeen all either went heroically to Allah, or else converted into nice, "love they neighbor" touchy-feely type guys.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


10-12% would be very high for an occupation/police action.

I've been trying to get a fix on the intensity - its higher than Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan for that matter, which is a bit of surprise. Its definitely much lower than Vietnam - thus far at least.

Those long supply lines must be a real b*tch. Presumably most supplies have to be trucked in.

The slant towards the MPs, Transport and Civil Affairs types takes the line company casualty rates down, but I haven't seen any type of organizational breakdown. The thing is that there's nothing so far that indicates we're seeing large scale resistance, just a fairly small to moderate number who are getting some operational tempo established.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Yes, the ISSS, SRG, and Saddam Fedayeen all either went heroically to Allah, or else converted into nice, "love they neighbor" touchy-feely type guys.

Hmm. Their ex-roster may be militant, but it is not necessarily Ba'athist.

[Ted Striker]

MTG do you buy the theory that if we can locate the ringleaders and either kill them or jail them, that most of this will stop?