The Brits ought to massively support the European Constitution

[Spiffor]

Well, real pro-Europe Brits already do. But the throngs of anti-Europe Brits should really love the constitution as well, because it allows at last a country to leave the EU if it wants.

Article 59: Voluntary withdrawal from the Union
[list=1][*] Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the European Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
[*] A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention; the European Council shall examine that notification. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the
European Parliament.

The representative of the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in Council of Ministers or European Council discussions or decisions concerning it.
[*] The Constitution shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, decides to extend this period.
[*] If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to re-join, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 57 [the normal procedure to join the Union].[/list=1]

So, it looks lovely doesn't it? Why do you keep harassing your pro-constitution politicians when this constitution can so obviously serve the interest of the anti-Europeans?

[JohnT]

Saying you can do something and actually doing it are vastly different things.

[Solly]

What, and you think if that clause wasn't in, it would actually make a difference to a country decising whether to stay or leave?

[Starchild]

I know it makes sense. I know it's a tidying up exercise to bring all the treaties under one roof. I know it will make things a lot clearer (hopefully) and I know the UK's been a big winner at negotiations cause AFAIK, none of our red lines have been crossed.

But ask the average Daily Mail reader in middle England and the moment they hear the word Europe used in anyway that doesn't mean cheap vacations or booze and their heads explode. Throw in hints about doing something slightly mean to the Queen and they'll claw out your eyes. I was shocked when a friend of mine went into a rant when he heard the Queen might have her position as head of the armed forces altered. Mainly because
A) he's a left wing atheist,
B) the news story didn't actually say anything of the sort and
C) despite being an intelligent guy he listed off the most absurd anti-EU propaganda.

Some people, who've honestly sat down and thought through the issues involved and decided against the EU I can respect. Most people, I can't.

[chequita guevara]

Can you expell countries from the EU?

[Spiffor]

Chegitz:
No, but you can remove their rights as members

Article 58: Suspension of Union membership rights[list=1][*] On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the Commission, the Council of Ministers, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may adopt a European decision determining that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values mentioned in Article 2 [the article stating the values of the European Union]. Before making such a determination, the Council of Ministers shall hear the Member State in question and, acting in accordance with the same procedure, may address recommendations to that State.

The Council of Ministers shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.
[*] The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may adopt a European decision determining the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values mentioned in Article 2, after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.
[*] Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, may adopt a European decision suspending certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Constitution to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of that Member State in the Council of Ministers. In so doing, the Council of Ministers shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.

That Member State shall in any case continue to be bound by its obligations under the Constitution.
[*] The Council of Ministers, acting by a qualified majority, may subsequently adopt a European decision varying or revoking measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.
[*] For the purposes of this Article, the Council of Ministers shall act without taking into account the vote of the Member State in question. Abstentions by members present in person or represented shall not prevent the adoption of decisions referred to in paragraph 2.

This paragraph shall also apply in the event of voting rights being suspended pursuant to paragraph 3.
[*] For the purposes of paragraphs 1 and 2, the European Parliament shall act by a two-thirds majority of the votes cast, representing the majority of its Members.[/list=1]

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by JohnT
Saying you can do something and actually doing it are vastly different things.

Yep, but the procedure stated here is quite easy in comparison to what a non-procedure would be. Pretty much any country could leave the EU without a legal headache and without ruining its relationship with its neighbours for decades now.

The Brits sure should do so

[Snotty]

The UK independence party are holding a talk near me called 'The EU constitution, the end of freedom?'. Im pretty sure which side of the line they fall on. Im thinking of going because its always a good laugh to watch the right wing nut jobs at it.

[Starchild]

Spiffy, where are you getting this stuff from?

[Spiffor]

http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00850.en03.pdf

It's a 265 pages massive document, but only the 60-70 first are interesting for the layman. I read them (in French) in less than an hour.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Can you expell countries from the EU?

Yeah. France and Germany are blatantly violating the stability pact and need to be punished.

[Spiffor]

Fortunately, the stability pact is not a core value of the EU

(otherwise, we'd all be criminals at some point or other)

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Yeah. France and Germany are blatantly violating the stability pact and need to be punished.

This falls under the 1t pillar and carries with it economic consequences which can be delivered by the commission I think.
Still there's a divide inside the EU in wether the stability pact should get more flexible.
There are conutries in favor of it (like italy) and countries definitely against (like holland)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Spiffor

http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00850.en03.pdf

It's a 265 pages massive document, but only the 60-70 first are interesting for the layman. I read them (in French) in less than an hour.

You have a 265 page Constitution!?! How is anyone supposed to learn that?

[Bereta_Eder]

Har har. Try reading a 1,000 page megabrick full of european court decisions. This is a piece of cake in comparison.