Bye bye IDS?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Michael Howard has support from all wings of the party (look at his list of declared supporters - everyone from Portillo to David Davis)

A right-winger and a former right-winger who'd take one in every orifice if it meant rebuilding his standing? Whoa.

This isn't a sign of a united party- it's a sign of panic. The divisions over Europe have not been resolved, and while a panicked unity may temporarily prevail, give them a little more confidence and they'll start fighting again.

[The Viceroy]

No Lazarus and the Gimp .. they are United !!! In their grief

Its only when people like *End is Forever* realise how totally out of touch they are with reality, that the Tory party may become a force, until then .. they will remain United in defeat and marginalisation.

Thier attitude to the Lib Dems is amusing, talk about sticking your head in the sand .. ha ha ha ..

Ive never seen such a major party self distruct in such a way, even the Labour party in the 80's was more electable than the tories today .. And of course, Howard will change everything .. yehh right.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Snotty
Left, right, whatever. Being a centre party means we are going to have policies from the left and the right. Sometimes we are going to be slated because people cant grasp the concept. The cabinet is always going to have a slant to it, and its a very smart move to highlight our right like this.

Howard plans on cutting tax. Which hospitals and schools is he planning on closing? I find policies like this morally repugnant, punishing the least fortunate as they do.

Couldn't agree more. When people can realise that a party can have some opinions from the right, and some from the left, to make a balanced centre-ish party, then we will finally get a non-inept government Anyone fancy giving me odds on the Lib Dems becoming the 2nd party of British politics in 2005?

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
A right-winger and a former right-winger who'd take one in every orifice

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
This isn't a sign of a united party- it's a sign of panic. The divisions over Europe have not been resolved, and while a panicked unity may temporarily prevail, give them a little more confidence and they'll start fighting again.

I don't see it as a sign of panic.

I think it's simply that the Micheal Howard is a candidate who the Tory party can unite behind. He is someone who has enough clout to gain support, has enough decent, new, policies to appeal to the modernisers, while still remaining a core tory at heart. To the tory party, he's a great candidate, and will win the leadership contest, whoever stands against him. However he won't win a general election. Sure, he has some new policies that make sense, but he acts, talks, looks and runs a party like a Tory, and the nation has moved on since Major. I just don't think he will appeal to the voters at all. He's too much of an old-school Tory.

The only thing that I've seen that gives him hope is the Sun interview, which had a glimmer of hope of being able to put his policies across to the people,and to be in tune with some of public opinion. He can capitalise of the asylum and Europe issues, and may gain some because of it, but it won't be enough, even with support from the Sun. I'm just praying he can take the sun down with him.

He may be able to gain somewhat on Labour, and fend of the Lib Dems, although I wouldn't count on it. And that is only because of the disillusionment with Labour. I can't see him having a hope in the general election, however I can see the 3 parties coming a lot closer together.

[*End Is Forever*]

Drogue,

Anyone fancy giving me odds on the Lib Dems becoming the 2nd party of British politics in 2005?

I could... but they'd be so long that they wouldn't fit on the page.

[Drogue]

I reckon it would only be 2 or 3:1. I wouldn't say it's likely, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. A lot can happen, especially with a new leader, in 2 years.

[MOBIUS]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

I have to hand it to *EiF*, what a plucky and tenacious defence against overwhelming odds!

And already sounding like a true politician by attempting to deflect criticism against his own party by attempting to belittle the very party that is fast swallowing up your ability to oppose labour - *EiF* for Tory leader!

I think the reason everyone has decided to stand behind Howard is because they are sh*t scared of the grassroots membership electing another IDS, as happened a couple of years back...

William Hague's lasting legacy - the fact that the MP's are no longer in control of their own party and actually have to suffer a 'democratic process' (oh the shame!) if more than one person stands.

This is nothing more than an attempted 'fait accompli' by the MP's to retain control of the leadership process and it is so transparent it is hilarious!

Anyway, the party is so unified that Portillo has just today publicly questioned Howard had changed his spots (and we all know about Leopards and their spots, don't we?)...

You know, on little things like his stance on support for retaining bans on gay adoption and promotion of homosexuality in schools and suchlike, as being a homophobe, I doubt very much that Howard and Portillo like each other very much...

Other stuff like his apparent U-Turn on cutting taxes is pretty unsettling too. Enough that there are also murmurs from Ken Clarke as well...

Mmm, very united...

The guy is still a rightwing Thatcherite throwback Conservative with a distinctly capital 'C' - nothing will change that!

A question *EiF*, what do the grassrots tories thing about Howard? Do you think they would support him if another tory threw his hat into the ring - someone with an axe to grind? I doubt it would be pretty...

Also, what about these undeclared Incepta shares of Howard's I'm hearing about - sh*t the guy isn't even leader yet and the crap is starting to come out of the woodwork. Now apparently Incepta's chief executive, Richard Nichols has confirmed it was an error and under the allowed amount - but was at a loss to explain how it had arisen in the company's reports... Dodgy, peut-etre?

Laugh? I need a nappy I've pissed myself so much!

[*End Is Forever*]

A question *EiF*, what do the grassrots tories thing about Howard? Do you think they would support him if another tory threw his hat into the ring - someone with an axe to grind?

The mood of the grassroots is upbeat; I was at the Selby constituency (13th target from Labour at the next election) finally selection meeting yesterday and everyone is very much looking forward to fighting the next election.

[Solly]

Iain, why are you so stringently Conservative? Your ideological positions suggest it is a position you've forced yourself into, yet you don't quite deserve. The most powerful are floaters.

Still, I admire your perserverence. I don't think the next election will be won - to win, Portillo needs to come back. Howard is a damn good stop gap though, let's see how he does. No-one should make their mind up on him yet. I haven't.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Iain! Answer the questions! Do I have to get Paxman on your arse?

[*End Is Forever*]

The most powerful are floaters

Well, the most powerful are those who can convince the floaters...

I don't think the next election will be won - to win, Portillo needs to come back.

It's an uphill struggle; no-one doubts that. Whilst I do agree (largely) with Portillo on policy, I don't think he personally is the right man; however I would hope that he will serve in the Shadow Cabinet. Part of the reason the Parliamentary Party has stayed in the doldrums for so long is that senior figures (namely, Clarke and Portillo, and their followers) have taken their ball home and sulked rather that unite behind the leader. Hopefully this will happen with Howard - half the battle is stopping the constant sniping at whoever the leader is, and the signs thus far, whatever people like MOBIUS might say, are positive.

Howard is a damn good stop gap though, let's see how he does. No-one should make their mind up on him yet.

He's being written off by political opponents, but then that's their job; the whole "LibDems target Folkestone" thing is nonsense, but admittedly impressive PR. He's also had some excellent write-ups (importantly in the Sun, but also from usually hostile sources like Nick Assinder on BBC Online) and that's more than IDS got at any point; the signs are positive. There's a long way to go, though.

[MOBIUS]

Dracula will never be a successful leader, the latest skeleton in the closet is that he apparently has a 'druglord' cousin who is just about to be released from prison...

Fair goes, that's not really his own fault apart from the fact that when he was Home Sec he was particularly intolerant of drug pushers - though apparently he pulled a few strings for his cousin...

Also he is follically challenged like IDS and slaphead before him - an interesting fact is that no bald man has ever won a general election, except when his opponent was also a bald man...

Anyway, I am getting in line behind Laz to get Paxman on yo' ass...

Answer the questions - rebut the points we make!

Cos from where I'm sitting, I am assuming you accept all the points I made in my earlier post because the only thing you answer is the mood of the grassroots support and then you totally dodge the questions at hand with this meaningless statement that 'everyone is very much looking forward to fighting the next election'!

C'mon *EiF*, think of this as training for when you're a tory MP...

[*End Is Forever*]

Well, fair enough MOBIUS...

I have to hand it to *EiF*, what a plucky and tenacious defence against overwhelming odds!

Well, I think that's a compliment... that or you're recollecting Bolton's courageous escape at the end of last season...

I think the reason everyone has decided to stand behind Howard is because they are sh*t scared of the grassroots membership electing another IDS, as happened a couple of years back...

...then why would David Davis stand aside, given that everyone was commenting on his "popularity with the grassroots"?

This is nothing more than an attempted 'fait accompli' by the MP's to retain control of the leadership process and it is so transparent it is hilarious

Wait... wait... on one hand, we're so divided we can't even keep our disagreements in private, yet on the other hand we're all so chummy we're stiching the whole thing up. Make your mind up, please. Oh wait, you're a Liberal Democrat - you can't do that! Sorry...

Dracula will never be a successful leader, the latest skeleton in the closet is that he apparently has a 'druglord' cousin who is just about to be released from prison...

Ah, guilty by association. Good to see we're resorting to intellectual arguments here! Interesting none of these strange allegations is appearing in the mainstream press...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Well, I think that's a compliment... that or you're recollecting Bolton's courageous escape at the end of last season...

Touche. Well it is in a way - a celebration of sheer bloody minded stubborness in the face of a clearly lost cause... You remind me of a Davy Crockett or Jim Bowie...

I said at the time IDS was another slaphead that was doomed to failure and look what happened... I also remember a similar tenacious defence from your corner as we ridiculed your party for voting in such an obvious failure in waiting...

...then why would David Davis stand aside, given that everyone was commenting on his "popularity with the grassroots"?

Because he knows he doesn't have enough experience or backing to lead the party, and therefore lacks the self-belief required to run. Also he knows that if he were to win in the manner IDS did, i.e. the grassroots countermanding the decision of the MPs, he would be in the same political wilderness IDS was which would further divide and destroy the party as you would be faced with the same kind of BS after the 2005 election looking for another leader.

'David Davis stood aside from the Tory leadership race to avoid a contest that would have crippled the party, he said.'

A quote from the BBC...

Actually I think his decision not to stand is an act of leadership in that he will use the intervening time to strengthen his hand as dracula flounders...

Wait... wait... on one hand, we're so divided we can't even keep our disagreements in private, yet on the other hand we're all so chummy we're stiching the whole thing up. Make your mind up, please. Oh wait, you're a Liberal Democrat - you can't do that! Sorry...

Your MPs are running scared of the grassroots, they are desperate not to repeat the IDS debacle, so they are trying their best to be chummy on the face of it - at least to elect an unopposed leader. However, as we see some of your leading lights just cannot resist with the little jibes already! So yes, I am capable of seeing through the smokescreen of tory deception having grown up with Thatch-B*tch.

Ah, guilty by association. Good to see we're resorting to intellectual arguments here! Interesting none of these strange allegations is appearing in the mainstream press...

Ah I see you did not quote the part where I say that the fact that his cousin is a drug dealer is not his fault - you must be grasping when you feel you have to twist my words... Ah yes, it's a story in the tabloids, they don't call it the gutter press for nothing - just ask Jeffrey Archer about the truth behind their stories!

Well, your first feeble rispostes have been swatted away with the greatest of ease.

OK, now answer the rest of my points - the ones that you obviously don't have a decent straight answer for...

[CerberusIV]

I actually live in the Selby constituency *EiF* mentions. If this isn't "natural" tory country nowhere is yet they lost the seat in 97 and didn't improve in the last election. People here will vote on education and the economy. Neither seem headed for being so bad that the government will lose. There are a lot of seats like this one and the tories are unlikely to gain enough of them as things stand.

The apparent tory unity will hold for maybe two or three weeks, until the views of the party membership are clear, then the deeply ingrained habit of plotting and backstabbing will re-assert itself amongst tory MP's.

[*End Is Forever*]

Selby will return comfortably to the Conservatives at the next election. We have selected a first-class candidate in Mark Menzies, and John Grogan has been exposed as a lying incompetent fool since his initial election.

Where do you live Cerberus?