Bye bye IDS?

[Provost Harrison]

I have no problem with Charles Kennedy. I remember seeing him on Have I Got News For You...he is very sharp...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Just curious: Now that Labour is "New Labour," and the "Third Way" has replaced good old-fashioned socialism, what are the political/ideological differences between Labour and the Liberal Dems? Doesn't seem like there would be many...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I have no problem with Charles Kennedy. I remember seeing him on Have I Got News For You...he is very sharp...

I know that and you know that, but my impression is that the average tw@t in the street (i.e. the majority of voters) thinks he's a bit of a duffer who might have a drink problem...

He just doesn't project a dynamic enough image to attract voters away from the other parties.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Just curious: Now that Labour is "New Labour," and the "Third Way" has replaced good old-fashioned socialism, what are the political/ideological differences between Labour and the Liberal Dems? Doesn't seem like there would be many...

British politics is a bit strange ever since "New Labour". In the good old days we had a left wing party, Labour, a right wing party, Conservatives, and a centre party, the Liberals. All three were a relatively broad church with a range of views.

Then the Labour party went splat in the late '70's/early '80's and spawned the Social Democrats who then got taken over by the Liberals. Once Labour lost the '92 election they finally broke with anything remotely socialist and moved to being a slightly right of centre party - the bit of the political spectrum most likely to get elected. This pushed the Lib Dems rather to the left as the party with a social conscience. the Conservatives are left with nowhere to go and are spending their time (when not tearing themselves apart) recycling policies that are not very different from New Labour, just different words for more or less the same thing, except on the EU where they pretend it isn't far too late to change anything.

So now we don't have socialism, just three parties whose policies aren't fundamentally that different so it comes down to personalities. The Lib Dems don't expect to be the next government so they propose slightly more radical policies secure in the knowledge that they won't actually have to carry them out.

Since it is largely on personality Tony is streets ahead of Kennedy, IDS, Howard and anyone else likely to lead either of the other parties.

Perhaps not a detailed answer to the question but that's the way I see it (I wasn't quite old enough to vote in 1979).

[TheStinger]

"New Labour" are not IMO right of centre, they are slightly left of centre. The argument that they are a right wing party is put about by those on teh left who think New labour have betrayed their socialist routes, this may be correct but you don't have to be socialist to be of the left.

The Lib Dems have moved a bit to the left, however recently they have just started to talk about more right wing economic policies.

The Tories are still in a mess and can't quite work out where on the spectrum they should be.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Ah, now I get it. Thanks.

[Snotty]

Originally posted by The Viceroy
The Lib Dems are not taking up the challenge (they often talk about becoming the 2nd party, yet ... when will they realise they have to do something to get there ???) and the tories .. well, we've seen what they are capable of.

What more do they have to do except keep making gains at general elections? +6 seats in 2001 and +28 in 1997. This isnt something thats going to happen overnight.

If I was a tory party member I would be furious at what howard has masterminded. The first leader the ordinary party member gets to elect and he gets stabbed in the back. I certainly wouldnt vote for howard after what he did.

[The Viceroy]

The lib dems need to do a lot more. Firstly, the need to start walking and talking like a government, and need to continually be talking about its policies on Health, Economy, Defence, Transport, Education .. all the key things. Sure, they have policies ... but the truth is, they are not well known.

Secondly they need to attacking the government, much in the way they did with the war. People should assume they are the credible alternative ..

Simply just expecting to make small gains each time, without making serious moves of this kind, will mean you will only gain when somebody is unpopular, and will lose when they are not.

[Snotty]

I think the lib dems need to do as they have be doing, attacking the torys.

Their immediate goal is to become the opposition, this is something they have to do before they can even consider taking control of the government. There will be no huge jump from 3rd place to 1st (except in brent east )

As the lib dems gain grounds, public awareness of their policies will also increase.

will mean you will only gain when somebody is unpopular, and will lose when they are not.

Is that not true of all partys though? labour certainly gained when the torys were unpopular, and they will lose again.

[The Viceroy]

Obviously not, the Tories are probably the most unpopular they have ever been, and yet, they are still considered the opposition, so they are not affected by popularity.

I still think the lib dems will never become the 2nd party until they start believing they are.

[Snotty]

They are still considered the opposition because they are the 2nd biggest party.

The lib dems are drawing away voters from both labour and the torys. As the lib dems gain more voices in the house of commons, then they will have a greater ability to oppose the government.

[The Viceroy]

The problem they have is that they are still the party of protest. Brent East was more about anti Blair, than pro Lib Dem policy ... why ? because they don't have any policies that the general public are aware of.

They are the ideal Anti Tory vote where Labour is not powerful, they are the ideal choice for once tories, who couldn't stomach voting Labour .. and such people return to the fold when either party gains enough popularity (which is what i was talking about earlier).

Actually, Id prefer the Lib Dems to be the official opposition, but thats just the Tory hater in me ..

So in an odd way, I hope your right Snotty .. I just don't think it will happen in the next 20-30 years.

[Snotty]

We canvassed Brent east thoroughly and repeatedly. Anyone who wanted to know our policies then could just read one of the leaflets we pushed through the doors. I imagine people too disinterested to read a leaflet would also be too disinterested to vote.

I agree that brent east was helped along greatly by the anti-labour vote, but the win does follow the pattern of gains the lib dems have been having in cities.

Hopefully some of the new lib dem voters will find a better ideological home with us, even when fickle people flock back to their party on its upsurge.

I dont really see the lib dems reaching the top for 20-30 years either, but its something that will happen. We just have to be patient.

[The Viceroy]

I believe the old saying goes something along these lines..

"An enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[Solly]

Why don't the Tories offer a referendum on the Euro one year after they take office at the next General Election, and that whatever the result, that will be it for Britain forever - no second poll in a year's time.

They give the people the say and will probably get the result they want - no Euro, and other political parties hamstrung on the issue as well.

Why don't they think of this..