Why do Israeli settlements exist at all ?

[Spiffor]

I know the Palestinians haven't dropped the return of refugees. But for a reason, they were able not to mention it too loudly for 7 years

Besides, I think you Israelis should think about your society anyways. Return of Refugees or not, you're gonna be outnumbered by Arabs at some point. Then, you'll have either to expel them again, or you'll have to rethink your society.

[Az]

I know the Palestinians haven't dropped the return of refugees. But for a reason, they were able not to mention it too loudly for 7 years

Why should they? Remember, before that, the PLO leadership was in Tunis! Now they're back in west bank, and gaza strip, have well-paying jobs, and command forces with the scale that they only managed to command before 82', when they were crushed by Israel in Lebanon. They were back from "forgotten guerilla" status to "de-facto country" status, by this, nullifying the results of the Lebanon war vis a vis Israel, and even gaining more ground!

Besides, I think you Israelis should think about your society anyways. Return of Refugees or not, you're gonna be outnumbered by Arabs at some point. Then, you'll have either to expel them again, or you'll have to rethink your society.

I know that. But this is true for France, as well.

[Dinner]

But I really can't get the use of the colonies. Why do they exist at all?

Mostly they exist to punish the Palestinians for refusing to sign a comprehensive peace accord ("If you don't sign then we'll take even more land") and also so that Israel will have something to trade to the Palestinians for peace. I.E. "If you sign the peace deal we will dismantle the settlements."

[Eli]

The Eretz Israel dream still exists. The logic is that even if we dont eventually get the entire west bank of the Jordan, we will at least get as much land as possible from Judea&Samaria thanks to huge settlements that, because of their size, will be impossible to remove.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I.E. "If you sign the peace deal we will dismantle the settlements."

This is actually a very good reason.

[Az]

Originally posted by Eli
The Eretz Israel dream still exists. The logic is that even if we dont eventually get the entire west bank of the Jordan, we will at least get as much land as possible from Judea&Samaria thanks to huge settlements that, because of their size, will be impossible to remove.

Nah. If it would be so, the construction of the settlements would be more dense, and close to the Israeli borders.

[uh Clem]

There's an alternative to RoR: compensation. Yeah, it was wrong to kick you out, but it was more than half a century ago, so take this in return for giving up your claims.

It recognizes the legitimacy of Palestinian grievances (which even Ben Gurion acknowledged), while preserving the "Jewish character" of Israel, whatever that's supposed to mean.

And it's not as if the Israelis would have to pay anything, anyway, since the ultimate source of funds would almost certainly be the US taxpayer.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Azazel

Nah. If it would be so, the construction of the settlements would be more dense, and close to the Israeli borders.

But that's exactly the situation. Most of the settlers are in settlements around Jerusalem and close to the green line. Ariel is pretty much the only big exception.

[Az]

There's an alternative to RoR: compensation. Yeah, it was wrong to kick you out, but it was more than half a century ago, so take this in return for giving up your claims

But forfeiting the RoR undersuch conditions wasn't agreed by the palestinians. They wanted it to remain an option to the refugees.

[Edan]

Re: Why do Israeli settlements exist at all ?

Originally posted by Spiffor
Why do they exist at all?

At the start, they were largely set up for the purposes of self defense - Israel under the '67 borders is a lot harder to defend than one that has wider borders, control of strategic points like the Golan Heights, etc - especially with the other side refusing to talk peace. (well, with a few exceptions, like the old city of Jerusalem, etc, although defense probably played a part in that too.)

Since then, it's moved more towards "owning Greater Israel" (at least at the policy side) - a sizeable minority of the settlers themselves aren't religious, and live there because it's cheaper to do so.

Why do colonies contiue to be built, legally or illegally, with only a token resistance from the Israeli government?

The nature of Israeli politics (ie, having a coalition of a lot of parties), as well as an issue of negotiations- "You're not working on cracking down terrorism, so why should we reward you by dismantling settlements?". Indeed, Arafat has been a brilliant negotiator during the Oslo process, winning a lot of concessions while giving little or nothing in return. This is just a taste of his own medicine.

However,
most of the settlement growth falls within the area that the Clinton proposal would have had given to Israel, making the Clinton proposal still a viable solution.

[Az]

Originally posted by Eli


But that's exactly the situation. Most of the settlers are in settlements around Jerusalem and close to the green line. Ariel is pretty much the only big exception.

Jerusalem is an exception.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Azazel


Jerusalem is an exception.

Jerusalem isn't dense and isn't next to the green line?

[Az]

That's why I said that it was an exception. Generally this is not the case, and the settlements are scattered. The settlements around Jerusalem are basically neighbourhoods. Another exception is Ariel. In both cases, the amount of territory is still very small, and Israel has agreed to exchange some other land for it.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Azazel
That's why I said that it was an exception. Generally this is not the case, and the settlements are scattered. The settlements around Jerusalem are basically neighbourhoods. Another exception is Ariel. In both cases, the amount of territory is still very small, and Israel has agreed to exchange some other land for it.

Well, the settlements are scattered, but the vast majority of the settlers are living in dense settlements near the Israeli border.

If anything, Ariel is an exception in the other way (I think that's what Eli meant) in that it's further away from the border than most of the dense settlements).

I think both you and Eli were asrguing the same side of the argument.

[Az]

I think that "the truth is somewhere in the middle" is a better way to put it.