iTunes for Windows is out

[Imran Siddiqui]

Anyone can use it, just not for free. See the logic?

Then it isn't exactly 'open' now is it. Open software implies free! Proprietary software is when you gotta buy it to use it.

[Asher]

For the record, Winamp 5 ships with a AAC encoder & decoder (sans DRM).

[Drake Tungsten]

Then it isn't exactly 'open' now is it. Open software implies free! Proprietary software is when you gotta buy it to use it.

Not really. Proprietary software has more to do with the inner workings of the software being kept secret. Apple could let others use its Fairplay DRM standards for free, but if they kept the information on how it really works to themselves it would still be proprietary.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Not really. Proprietary software has more to do with the inner workings of the software being kept secret.

Oh! Okay then.

Using this definition, WMA is an Open Standard as well then, since the algorithms and whatnot are all for public viewing and have all been copyrighted, just like AAC.

God bless Open Standards like WMA!

[Drake Tungsten]

If I didn't know better, I'd say Macs are perhaps time machines for people's personalities.

Nah. It's your "I'm the smartest boy in the world and I'm never wrong" attitude that brings out the child in all of us. Hard to have an adult discussion with someone who never even acknowledges the possibility that he may be wrong.

And I'd also like someone to explain to me why AAC is "open" and WMA is "proprietary" when they have identical characteristics...

AAC is an ISO/IEC approved open standard. WMA is not. Pretty simple.

[Drake Tungsten]

Using this definition, WMA is an Open Standard as well then, since the algorithms and whatnot are all for public viewing and have all been copyrighted, just like AAC.

Too bad the standard isn't immune from alteration whenever MS feels like it. Not really open if one company controls all aspects of its development.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
AAC is an ISO/IEC approved open standard. WMA is not. Pretty simple.

Since when?

Last I checked, only MPEG2-AAC and MPEG4-AAC were ISO standards (13818-7 and 14496-3, respectively).

AAC itself, as it's used as an MP3-replacement, is not an ISO standard. This is why Apple is able to mix in its DRM and still call it an AAC file.

[Drake Tungsten]

Look back in the thread, Glonk. I'm not linking to it a second time.

[Asher]

Maybe you should read your own links more carefully then, they mention MPEG4-AAC specifically and even give its number.

Even then, this doesn't really matter -- ISO doesn't mean it's an open standard. As Q Cubed pointed out, JPEG is an ISO standard and is totally proprietary.

Microsoft's C# is also an ISO standard, would you say that this is an open standard as well?

[Drake Tungsten]

From what I understand, Apple is using MPEG4-AAC plus the Fairplay DRM, hence the .m4a extension. You got any evidence to the contrary?

[Asher]

I think you're confused, Drake -- how could the AAC version Apple uses be a standard when they've modified it so it can only work with their DRM?

Do you understand what standard means?

Now we bring the induction phase: if Apple's AAC is incompatible with everyone elses, how does this certify as an ISO standard? How could this be compliant with the MPEG4-AAC standard if it doesn't work with it entirely?

[Asher]

As far as I know, Apple based their AAC version off of MPEG4-AAC, which is a standard, and created another proprietary incarnation of it when they mixed it with their DRM.

It reminds me of all of the MPEG4-derived codecs, but no one claims DivX is an "ISO Standard".

[Drake Tungsten]

I think you're confused, Drake -- how could the AAC version Apple uses be a standard when they've modified it so it can only work with their DRM?

Vanila AAC is the standard, not the modified Apple version used in the iTunes Music Store. I never claimed otherwise, so this is an obvious attempt on your part to deflect attention from the fact that you lied yet again a few posts up. You tried to make it look like Apple was using a non-standard AAC format as the base upon which they grafted Fairplay, when in fact they are using MPEG4-AAC and adding some DRM on to it.

Jesus, this is why I can't stand debating with you. Every ****ing post is filled with inaccuracies (at best) and outright lies (at worst). The worst part is that you won't ever admit you're wrong, even when caught. You just try to change the subject and go on like nothing happened.

Well, I'm sick of it. I've got better things to do with my time. Maybe Q Cubed and Imran want to have a real discussion on this...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Vanila AAC is the standard, not the modified Apple version used in the iTunes Music Store. I never claimed otherwise, so this is an obvious attempt on your part to deflect attention from the fact that you lied yet again a few posts up.

I said AAC was not an open standard, AAC is obviously a standard.

That wasn't me lying a few posts up, this is you lying right here.

You tried to make it look like Apple was using a non-standard AAC format as the base upon which they grafted Fairplay, when in fact they are using MPEG4-AAC and adding some DRM on to it.

Apple is using a non-standard AAC format because they corrupted it with DRM so it is not compatible with AAC ISO-compliant players.

This isn't difficult, Drake.

Jesus, this is why I can't stand debating with you.

Why, because you don't seem to comprehend what people say and twist everything I say and say I said things I didn't say, then call me a liar?

Every ****ing post is filled with inaccuracies (at best) and outright lies (at worst).

Only yours...

The worst part is that you won't ever admit you're wrong, even when caught. You just try to change the subject and go on like nothing happened.

I'm not wrong. That's the point.

AAC isn't an open standard.
MPEG4-AAC is an ISO standard.
Apple doesn't use MPEG4-AAC, it uses its own MPEG4-AAC derived codec that is incompatible with MPEG4-AAC compliant decoders, which is precisely why it is suddenly proprietary.

Why must you make this so difficult?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Maybe Q Cubed and Imran want to have a real discussion on this...

*shrug* I agree with Asher mostly.