Is profit different from unfair tax?

[Kuciwalker]

Your point?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
I see what Kid is trying to get at is that companies should be required to reimburse their employees according to their profit earnings... Many companies do this, and it is built into their buisness models. Of which, many of these companies see great success.

I'm not getting at anything Japher. I'm just wondering why some people are more upset when they have to pay tax than they are when the company they work for makes profit at their expense. Only a few people bothered to take it at face value.

[Kuciwalker]

The company does not profit at their expense. They are not losing anything, unless they are being underpaid, in which case they can refuse to work unless they are paid more.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Good one, Kid, cite the capitalists who created this country to promote communism.

This country was built on hard work and the land was stolen. Capitalists didn't do any of it. The sat on their fat asses.

Originally posted by Berzerker
Pardon me, Kid, but if an employer did not make the investments in machinery and land, etc, what would your labor be worth if you were a machinist working for that employer? Less, nada? That's right, the machinist's labor is worth less without the employer's investments, so the extra money the machinist makes because of the employer's investments = PROFIT! Profit belonging to the machinist!!!

All you are talking about is organizing labor. It's not much work at all. I'm not saying that you shouldn't make a living doing it, but get real. Why should you get rich?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker
The company does not profit at their expense. They are not losing anything, unless they are being underpaid, in which case they can refuse to work unless they are paid more.

And choose to starve I guess?

[Kuciwalker]

Here's an analogy: I buy a lump of gold from you, a miner. I transport this lump of gold to the city, where it is bought by a jeweler for a higher price than I paid you. Should I then be forced to give you the difference? I essentially am employing you to mine gold, and profiting off of it. However, it was MY work that moved the gold, and MY work and skill that got the price I did.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker
Here's an analogy: I buy a lump of gold from you, a miner. I transport this lump of gold to the city, where it is bought by a jeweler for a higher price than I paid you. Should I then be forced to give you the difference? I essentially am employing you to mine gold, and profiting off of it. However, it was MY work that moved the gold, and MY work and skill that got the price I did.

You are assuming that the market price/wage is the fair wage. The only reason that I can see that you would do that is because the market works to your advantage, and to someone elses disadvantage.

[Kuciwalker]

Huh?

So you think I'm paying an unfair price for your gold. You have three options: hold out and see if I'll pay more, sell it to someone who will buy it for a higher price, or move it yourself.

Remember, if I don't get any gold, I "starve" too, because I have no income either.

[JohnT]

Re: Is profit different from unfair tax?

Originally posted by Kidicious
No.

The US was founded on a revolution against unfair taxation. Anger over unfair taxes is part of our national identity. Working people who know very little about economics and politcs find it so easy to critisize the government because of what they percieve as unfair taxes. It's easy to see how taxes hurt you because they come out of your check or you have to pay them directly. Why can't more working people see that profit, rent and interest comes out of their pay too?

You know, this is perhaps the most dissasociated post I have ever seen - imagine living in this world and thinking that working people do NOT see that profit, rent, and interest comes out of their pay.

Profit? It's called purchasing, and people do not assume that the merchants are selling for a loss.

Rent? It's called writing a check to your landlord and is a monthly practice for 10s, 100s of millions.

Interest? It's on the car payment, the mortgage payment, the credit card bills.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker
Huh?

So you think I'm paying an unfair price for your gold. You have three options: hold out and see if I'll pay more, sell it to someone who will buy it for a higher price, or move it yourself.

Remember, if I don't get any gold, I "starve" too, because I have no income either.

Typical. You are completely ignoring real economic circumstance. In the economic system parties negotiating a deal either have an advantage or disadvantage in the deal. One has greater negotiating power and the other has less. That's why the market price/wage isn't fair. If you have the advantage you insist that it is fair and you ignore the real world.

[Kidlicious]

Re: Re: Is profit different from unfair tax?

Originally posted by JohnT


You know, this is perhaps the most dissasociated post I have ever seen - imagine living in this world and thinking that working people do NOT see that profit, rent, and interest comes out of their pay.

Profit? It's called purchasing, and people do not assume that the merchants are selling for a loss.

Rent? It's called writing a check to your landlord and is a monthly practice for 10s, 100s of millions.

Interest? It's on the car payment, the mortgage payment, the credit card bills.

So why don't they get mad?

[Kuciwalker]

Typical. You are completely ignoring real economic circumstance.

In the economic system parties negotiating a deal either have an advantage or disadvantage in the deal.

WRONG!

Gotcha. Finally, we have narrowed your argument down to the fallacy at its core. You are assuming this is a zero-sum game. It is not. In the example where I am paying you "fair value" (which is a pretty ephemeral concept in itself), we BOTH benefit - you get money from me for the gold, and I get "profit". A more simple proof of this is that you got the gold for "free" - you used your labor to get it out, but if I'm paying the "fair value", you are getting the same or more money in return. The economy isn't a zero-sum game because there is a constantly increasing supply of raw materials, while there is a constantly decreasing supply of "produced" materials. ALL money is made by moving something along the way from the first category to the second.

One has greater negotiating power and the other has less. That's why the market price/wage isn't fair. If you have the advantage you insist that it is fair and you ignore the real world.

Nope, "fair" IS determined COMPLETELY by supply/demand. If suddenly, five billion trillion metric tons of gold were to come on the market, why should I pay you lots and lots of money for gold? It's everywhere! Without supply and demand, any value applied to a product is completely arbitrary.

EDIT: I see he seems to be ignoring this for now, so I can make some more edits and touch this up

[Imran Siddiqui]

So why don't they get mad?

Why should they? The accept those are the costs and take them into account.

[Kuciwalker]

Re: Re: Re: Is profit different from unfair tax?

Originally posted by Kidicious
So why don't they get mad?

They do. Look at this thread. Look at common successful political platforms. Look at the frigging red revolution in Russia. If that's not "mad", what is?

[JohnT]

Re: Re: Re: Is profit different from unfair tax?

Originally posted by Kidicious


So why don't they get mad?

Because they don't view it as unfair. And why don't they view it as unfair? Because it isn't unfair. See?