This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
Nah, just the commies.

Why don't you take your anti-communist trolling elsewhere?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Why don't you take your anti-communist trolling elsewhere?

Aaawww . . .

must have pressed the wrong button.


Don't take my trolls seriously.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ned
Oerdin, how could blame the Palestinians for all those "evils" when it boils down to the presence and control of just one evil man, Arafat. I think that once this man is gone, men of peace could be elected in Palestine.

I am not blaming all Palestinians. When someone says something like "The Germans slaughter many Russian civilians in WW2" it is clear that no one means all Germans took part in killing. The same holds true when we say "The Palestinians rejected Clinton's peace offer"; clearly we are refering to the Arafat & his Palestinian Authority and not every single living person in Palestine.

[Az]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So a council of thieves gave the biggest thief the land. There was a revolution. The Arabs had overthrown the Turks with Brit help. To take their "Leage" alloted protectorates, though, they had to invade, and bomb, and conquer these aeras from the Arab people.

The Allies had promised the Arabs independence, the Jews Palestine, and themelves the oil. They only kept one of those promises.

That's why the whole discussion about who's the genuine owner of the land meaningless.

OH AND BTW! those "arabs" who the allied promised independence to wheren't the nowaday palestinians. In fact, the ancestors of the nowadays palestinians didn't like them at all.

[Berzerker]

hmmm, so what country isn't the occupier?.... let's see where this historical path takes us

No need to trace history beyond 1945, the people living there owned the land. That would be Arabs, Jews, and a "few" non-semites.

noone said it was a one-sided slaughter. However, If you once again fail to make the distinction between combatants, and civilians, between intentional killing, and unintentional, this discussion is void.

This thread was created to portray it as a one-sided slaughter. And that "heavy equipment" you cited as the reason for 3x as many Arab deaths was not "unintentional"ly used. If it was, then I'd rather be the target of people "intentionally" trying to murder me.

Regarding that map (assuming it's not propaganda), take a look at all those Israeli settlements within Palestinian "sovereignty". If that was a sovereign country, why do Israeli tanks roll around it with such regularity?

No, Sharon wasn't participating in such actions. He does have a lot to answer in the Lebanon case, but that's old fashioned geo-political 'adventures', not terrorisms.

Oh yeah, he was involved with that slaughter (oops, "adventure"). So, which PM was bombing British soldiers a few decades ago?

Among the rest. The hundreds of thousands of jews left a lot of posessions in the arab world, among them, land.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I seriously don't understand what you mean. Is the mere fact that there is continued Israeli occupation enough to distinguish it from regular wars? I don't think so.

It does for those whose land is occupied. If you and your neighbor was at war, that wouldn't matter to me if you were occupying my land.

The country was established. It's goal was to provide a homeland for the jewish people, as a sovereign country. It granted citizenship all over it's sovereign territory. Where's the apartheid?

My God, where to begin? How many Palestinians settlements have been established on land owned by Jews? Water rights? Travel rights? The right of return? That map looks like the US Indian reservation system, not a sovereign country.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ramo
The offered state was split up into 5 cantons, without control over its water resources, borders, or air space. Doesn't seem all that sovereign to me.

The cantons thing has always been a lie. Israel would have gotten several movement corridors but the Palestinians had full rights to move any where in the West Bank and Gaza. As you may remember the Palestinians were given a similiar corridor to move through Israel to get to Gaza. Both sides got these corridors where their movement was insured (meaning there would be no check points or visa requirements).

The Palestinians also would have had full use and rights to all water resources with in the treaty borders of Palestine and the treaty insure the Palestinians had civilian air corridors through Israel and into the West Bank much as West Germany had through East Germany and into West Berlin.

Sorry but your argument just doesn't stand up to the facts.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes they do. Israeli snipers pick off non-combatants all the time.

That's crap Che. If there is a curfew and Palestinians are told "due to recent militant attacks no one is allowed to approach the military base at night. If you violate the curfew and approach the military base we will assume you are hostile and will open fire", yet he still goes and insists on running around the military base then it's his own fault.

It's a war zone. People have to follow military instructions.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Oh yeah, he was involved with that slaughter (oops, "adventure"). So, which PM was bombing British soldiers a few decades ago?

Begin was the worst of the lot, and Shamir wasn't much better. Sharon's claim to fame, if not counting the slaughter in Lebanon, is from his earlier days in the IDF, when he would lead raids into Arab-occupied Palestine. One time in the Gaza strip they were discovered and they ended up killing 60 Palestinians trying to escape. The difference between Sharon and someone like Abu-Nidal was that Sharon wore a uniform.

[Dinner]

Sharon and his soldiers were trying to attack a terrorist camp. When they were fired upon they returned fire. It's that simple and I'm sure many of those 60 people who were killed were shot by Palestinian guns so blaming it all on the Israelis isn't correct.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
That's crap Che.

It's not crap. You just need to read something besides the pro-Israeli press sometime. I don't have the link handy at the moment, but I will point to it later. More than 70 children have been murdered by the IDF. IIRC, that's just one town (Rafah).

[Sandman]

First off, the Palestinians Aztec-style culture of death is quite a bit more vile than Israel's ethnic chauvanism.

That said, I cannot understand why the Palestinians are criticised for wanting to 'drive the Jews into the sea', when a portion of Israel's government wants to drive the Palestinians into the desert. It's hypocritical to demand a crackdown on radical Palestinian groups without a similar crackdown on the Israeli side. MY suggestion: Offer to outlaw some of the settler parties in exchange for the Palestinians clamping down on Hamas etc. Fat chance that'll happen, of course.

It's also worth noting that this conflict is incredibly tiny; the main thing preventing peace is institutionalised ill-will, since the body-count is so low, compared to a real war. Tens of thousands died in the Ethiopia-Eritrea conflict, yet they somehow managed to negotiate a peace. Sad but true; the Intifidata probably saved more lives than it claimed by reducing suicide rates on both sides.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Sharon and his soldiers were trying to attack a terrorist camp.

So refugee camp = terrorist camp now?

[chequita guevara]

Re: This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians.

How many IDF soldiers have been held repsonsible for murdering Palestinians? Was the ****-up who ordered a bomb dropped on a house of sleeping children disciplined, let alone court martialed? Yes, they presecute a handful of settlers, though many more get away with murder and assault all the time. So maybe they're .1 percent better.

[Whaleboy]

[Az]

No need to trace history beyond 1945, the people living there owned the land. That would be Arabs, Jews, and a "few" non-semites.

Then we're confusing two things: personal property, and sovereignity. In that sense, the Brits did little to change the personal property. of the lands. Most of the land was the sovereign's land. First it was the Turks, then the Brits, and then the Israelis.

This thread was created to portray it as a one-sided slaughter.

No it wasn't.

And that "heavy equipment" you cited as the reason for 3x as many Arab deaths was not "unintentional"ly used. If it was, then I'd rather be the target of people "intentionally" trying to murder me.

I'd rather be killed by a bullet to the head, than to be killed by being hit by a car. In the first case I was murder. In the second, I was killed unpurposefully, whether it was my fault or the driver's. Do you think that the murder is a lesser evil?

Oh yeah, he was involved with that slaughter (oops, "adventure"). So, which PM was bombing British soldiers a few decades ago?

Actually, He wasn't involved in that slaughter. I was referring to the fact that the military campaign in the Lebanon was secretly planned by him to have bigger objectives than the way he reported it to Begin, and the government.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Snore. So I guess the jews should've compensated the arabs for their lands, but not get any compensation back, just to be 'right'?

Rrright.

It does for those whose land is occupied. If you and your neighbor was at war, that wouldn't matter to me if you were occupying my land.

It does for who's in a state of war very much too. In any case, I am not certain what do you mean by that part of your post.

My God, where to begin? How many Palestinians settlements have been established on land owned by Jews? Water rights? Travel rights? The right of return? That map looks like the US Indian reservation system, not a sovereign country.

You're not reading the map correctly, I assume. all of the grey area is palestinian controlled. That includes the little blue triangles on it. You can also notice that more land was given to the palestinians in return for the territory not given from the west bank 67' lines, like the safe passage road, and small bumps into sovereign Israeli territory.

Oh, and Begin probably is among the top 5 righteous leaders the Mid East has known in the last century. That doesn't contradict with the fact that he did many evil deeds, as well. You should know it very well, Che, from histories of different great men. They did some evil stuff, as well.