This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians.

[Berzerker]

The Brits'.

No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

Heavier equipment.

Yup, how moral. And hardly a one-sided slaughter with Jews being the slaughtered.

A sovereign palestinian state.

Is this what they teach in Jewish schools?

Confused? Weren't Arafat and Sharon (or was it some other Israeli PM?) "terrorists"? I've heard one Israeli PM bombed British soldiers to extradite their leaving.

doesn't negate the material claims of the jews.

What material claims? A claim to someone else's land?

Bunch of bull****. We had many wars with arab states, yet our education system doesn't tell us to kill as many arabs, etc.

Does that mean you've been educated in most Arab schools? Btw, you ignored my point as to why one side has reason to teach one way while another doesn't.

It isn't apartheid, since Israel has never established sovereignity over the palestinian population. ( And when it did, it granted citizenship. )

I'll quote you: "bunch of bullsh!t". The country was established to impose sovereignty on others.

[Az]

Originally posted by Berzerker


No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

hmmm, so what country isn't the occupier?.... let's see where this historical path takes us.

Yup, how moral. And hardly a one-sided slaughter with Jews being the slaughtered.

noone said it was a one-sided slaughter. However, If you once again fail to make the distinction between combatants, and civilians, between intentional killing, and unintentional, this discussion is void.

Is this what they teach in Jewish schools?

Confused? Weren't Arafat and Sharon (or was it some other Israeli PM?) "terrorists"? I've heard one Israeli PM bombed British soldiers to extradite their leaving.

No, Sharon wasn't participating in such actions. He does have a lot to answer in the Lebanon case, but that's old fashioned geo-political 'adventures', not terrorisms.

What material claims? A claim to someone else's land?

Among the rest. The hundreds of thousands of jews left a lot of posessions in the arab world, among them, land.

Does that mean you've been educated in most Arab schools? Btw, you ignored my point as to why one side has reason to teach one way while another doesn't.

I seriously don't understand what you mean. Is the mere fact that there is continued Israeli occupation enough to distinguish it from regular wars? I don't think so.

I'll quote you: "bunch of bullsh!t". The country was established to impose sovereignty on others.

The country was established. It's goal was to provide a homeland for the jewish people, as a sovereign country. It granted citizenship all over it's sovereign territory. Where's the apartheid?

[Sava]

Neither cause is morally superior to the other... and there are extremist factions on each side causing problems. The difference, IMO, is the methods. The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians... the terrorists do. But the moderate Palestinians have just as just a cause as the moderate Israelis. The problem is the extremists. The Pal extremists want the total annhilation of Israel, the Israeli extremists want one state, and the complete annexation of the historical Holy Land. Both sides have enough power and hatred to force the rest of the people into a brutal war. It is a war, BTW... perhaps not in the traditional sense... but still a war.

[Dinner]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Berzerker
Whose land was it in 1945? [quote]

A British mandate with a 40-60 Jew Arab population split.

I've heard something like 3 x as many Palestinians have died as Isreali Jews, why?

Mostly this has to do with Arab military incompetence. The main reason the Arab militants have resorted to terrorism is because they have made such dismal failures as soldiers.

Have these offers of "peace" included a sovereign Palestinian state or just continued vassaldom?

The two state solution has been offered by Israel since 1948. From 1948-1967 the Palestinians were backstabbed by their Arab "brothers" who stole the best bank and Gaza from them. After 1967 Israel offered a fully independent Palestinian if the Palestinians would 1)stop seeking to destroy Israel 2) recognize Israel's right to exist 3)Prevent terrorist attacks. This offer has been more or less continously on the table yet the Palestinians have never accepted.

In 1979 the Egyptians accepted a true peace and so the Sinai was returned to them. In 1994 the Jordanians excepted, yet, Syria and Palestine have never accepted. To this day the PA continues to call for the destruction of the state of Israel and finances terrorist attacks.

Israel was created to absorb Jews, Arab dictatorships were not.

Actually Israel was created to absorb Jews. It was the stated declaration of Israel's Independence and was sanctified by the United Nations. If the Israeli's can provide new homes to Jews who were run out of Muslim countries then it is reasonable to expect Arab countries to resettle their people. The Arabs never have though instead they keep the Palestinians as a perminent refugee population.

I sure wouldn't, it's strange how the US condemned aparthied in South Africa while funding it in Israel.

First off there is no apartied in Israel; that has always been a lie. We worked against apartied in South Africa because it was morally wrong and could not be justified. Israel has geniune security concerns brought about by 50 years of Arab militantism and the many terrorist attacks. Now let me enlighten you to another fact; the difference in Israel is not racial and mainly it isn't even religous. The main difference is between Israeli citizens (Jew or Arab) who are allowed to move freely in Israel and no citizens living in the West Bank & Gaza who are resricted access to Israel. Since Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and are their own national group it makes sense they be treated like any other noncitizen nationality with reguards to immigration or travel.

[Datajack Franit]

Azazel, you've gotten a new supporter of Israel

[Ned]

Oerdin, how could blame the Palestinians for all those "evils" when it boils down to the presence and control of just one evil man, Arafat. I think that once this man is gone, men of peace could be elected in Palestine.

Again, why the US, the EU, the UN and the Russian coddle Arafat is a mystery. We should rather demand that he be arrested and removed to the Haque for trial for crimes against humanity.

I expect the American appeasement policy stems from State. We must have deals with others, like the Saudi's, to protect Arafat in exhange for certain "cooperation." However, someone has to realize at some time, that the whole ME situation would improve if that man were gone. No such deal is more important than removing Arafat.

[Az]

Thanks. However, it's not supporters what we really need, It's a true end to this mess. Some things make me think that it's very far from us. The more I see trends in the world, the more I feel S. Huntington is right.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Berzerker
No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

Ignorant. If you learn a bit about history you will learn that the League of Nations made the UK the legal controller of the area and this was agreed to in treaty with the Turks who previously controlled the territory. Further the creation of the state of Israel was fully blessed by the UN and Israel was made owner of everything in side the 1967 borders.

BTW I notice you avoid the real point of this thread; the fact that Israel punishes its extremists while the Palestinians promote and help their terrorists.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The bottom line is:

-Israel arrests terrorist, the Palestinians promote terrorist.

-The Israelis try to spare civilian life, the Palestinians deliberately target civilians.

-The Israelis have repeatedly offered peace over the last 60 years, the Palestinians have always rejected peace.

-The Israelis absorbed the thousands of Jewish refugees which Arab bigots throw out of Arab countries, the Arabs have refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees.

-Israeli schools teach that Arabs are good people but that specific Arab governments have bad policies, most Arab schools teach that Jews are evil and should be killed.

How can anyone try to claim there is moral equivalence between the two sides?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sava
Neither cause is morally superior to the other... and there are extremist factions on each side causing problems. The difference, IMO, is the methods. The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians... the terrorists do. But the moderate Palestinians have just as just a cause as the moderate Israelis. The problem is the extremists. The Pal extremists want the total annhilation of Israel, the Israeli extremists want one state, and the complete annexation of the historical Holy Land. Both sides have enough power and hatred to force the rest of the people into a brutal war. It is a war, BTW... perhaps not in the traditional sense... but still a war.

Sava: You are wrong and here is why. If one side upholds the rule of law and punishes it's extremeists while the other side does nothing but help terrorists then one side clearly is morally superior. You may not want to admite this but deep down you know it is true.

[Ramo]

A sovereign palestinian state.

The offered state was split up into 5 cantons, without control over its water resources, borders, or air space. Doesn't seem all that sovereign to me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sava
The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians.

Yes they do. Israeli snipers pick off non-combatants all the time.

[Az]

Originally posted by Ramo


The offered state was split up into 5 cantons, without control over its water resources, borders, or air space. Doesn't seem all that sovereign to me.

Link?

[MrFun]

Nah, just the commies.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If you learn a bit about history you will learn that the League of Nations made the UK the legal controller of the area

So a council of thieves gave the biggest thief the land. There was a revolution. The Arabs had overthrown the Turks with Brit help. To take their "Leage" alloted protectorates, though, they had to invade, and bomb, and conquer these aeras from the Arab people.

The Allies had promised the Arabs independence, the Jews Palestine, and themelves the oil. They only kept one of those promises.