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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ramo
    Sure there is. Unions are the basis of a free society. Worker and non-worker organization is a prerequisite for a free society. Economic self-determination is a fundamental right.
    ur adding all sorts of values into democracy that don't have to exist. if u can't realize this then u r seriously deprived of perspective.


    unions are a useful countermeasure to corporate power. they are not some inherent part of a democracy. so just hush.

    Comment

    • #32
      If you think democracy is the same thing as having elections, you are seriously deprived of perspective.
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

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      • #33
        Would you prefer:
        Then good for them. If we don't want unions, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom to Iraq. Likewise if we can't tolerate peaceful protest, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom.
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

        Comment

        • #34
          Originally posted by Ramo
          If you think democracy is the same thing as having elections, you are seriously deprived of perspective.
          u r obviously extremely culturally egotistical. I think democracy is having fair and cyclical elections. what the ppl actually want is up to them. in either case tho. we are setting up FOR a democracy. not actually practicing one yet.

          so ur wrong twice. which is a definite feat of merit.

          Comment

          • #35
            Originally posted by Ramo
            Would you prefer:
            Then good for them. If we don't want unions, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom to Iraq. Likewise if we can't tolerate peaceful protest, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom.
            I agree, we should tolerate all peaceful protest.

            Comment

            • #36
              What the people want is to organize. That's why there exists a union of the unemployed. Hence, the occupation authorities's actions are extremely anti-democratic. Thus, you are wrong.

              Building a civil society when worker organizations are crushed doesn't work. If we are "setting up for democracy," we're doing it incompetently.
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment

              • #37
                Worker organization is the most fundamental form of democracy as they are the entities in civil society most directly controlled by the people.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment

                • #38
                  Just a question, does "freedom of the press" extend to foreign media? I recall no decision precisely on point.
                  http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ramo
                    What the people want is to organize. That's why there exists a union of the unemployed. Hence, the occupation authorities's actions are extremely anti-democratic. Thus, you are wrong.

                    Building a civil society when worker organizations are crushed doesn't work. If we are "setting up for democracy," we're doing it incompetently.
                    once they start elections they can form all the unions their lil hearts desire. this is transition not the practice. and actually democracy allows tyranny of the majority. we never said we were going to give them a "civil society"(imagine the cultural backlash against that?). only that we'd give them a democracy.

                    so u have no ground to stand on.

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      You mean in the US? Foreign press has the same rights as domestic press over here.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        once they start elections they can form all the unions their lil hearts desire. this is transition not the practice. and actually democracy allows tyranny of the majority. we never said we were going to give them a "civil society"(imagine the cultural backlash against that?). only that we'd give them a democracy.
                        A democracy won't last without a civil society, and independent unions are one of its bases. If the state is given authoritarian powers during the occupation it will likely keep them.

                        And actual democracy is that peoples' liberties are respected by the state.
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ramo


                          A democracy won't last without a civil society, and independent unions are one of its bases. If the state is given authoritarian powers during the occupation it will likely keep them.

                          And actual democracy is that peoples' liberties are respected by the state.
                          no. u have to stop adding values to "democracy." democracy is the will of the ppl. insofar as the elections can be kept fair and cyclical. the rest of the pie is completely up to the ppl. thats the point.
                          u keep demanding things that aren't required. they are what you want in a society, not whats required in a democracy.

                          distinctly different.

                          I also assume that after the occupation the arabs will want to frame and handle as they see fit. which is the point of giving power over to elections. all this whining is not only off base, its also premature.

                          Comment

                          • #43
                            no. u have to stop adding values to "democracy." democracy is the will of the ppl. insofar as the elections can be kept fair and cyclical. the rest of the pie is completely up to the ppl. thats the point.
                            u keep demanding things that aren't required. they are what you want in a society, not whats required in a democracy.

                            distinctly different.
                            Democracy is that the will of the people is reflected in the government. If people want to form a paper free from gov't intrusion or if people want to organize to get a livable wage or not have their oil go off to subisidize US corporations that don't even hire native Iraqis, they should be free to do that in a democracy. That's how it works. The government isn't the only institution that reflects popular will - it's reflected in newspapers and unions as well.

                            I also assume that after the occupation the arabs will want to frame and handle as they see fit. which is the point of giving power over to elections. all this whining is not only off base, its also premature.
                            It's absolutely wrong the the US is tyrannically attacking Iraqi liberties - without any electoral mandate mind you. It's hurting Iraqis and their nascent civil society. This "whining" is neither off-base nor premature.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment

                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ramo
                              You mean in the US? Foreign press has the same rights as domestic press over here.
                              I find that hard to believe, for obvious reasons. I am sure the press from all Axis powers were banned during WWII, for example.
                              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Our rights in 2003 are not the same as our rights in 1942.
                                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                                -Bokonon

                                Comment

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