A question for the Great Sages of Apolyton

[TCO]

And don't be reporting me to Ming. I can't beleive that there are so many whiners.

[Urban Ranger]

Okay, so far, the opinions are:

[1] Regarding a specific situation - Take the high road (Imran, NYE) - pretty much my thoughts too.

[2] Regarding his overall predicament - bite the bullet, go for the gusto, no pain no gain, no risk no glory etc.


Ben,

She isn't wearing it when he is around, she wore it in a film.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by TCO
So you are Howard? Come on. Grow a nut. Show some self-respect. Woman will respect you more for it as well.

Nope, haven't you been paying attention?

[TCO]

Imran is not advocating the high road. Asher is.

[Urban Ranger]

Imran did avocate helping her with her problem, instead of just taking a hike. That is take the high road to me.

[TCO]

Imran is the guy who didn't show his gf to his parents at age 22, because he wanted to have them pay for grad school. Listen to Asher.

[Urban Ranger]

Just leave her in pain (okay, not full time pain, just when the memories well back)? That doesn't seem like what a friend would do.

[mindseye]

Let's get some perspective here.

Howard's years of anguished yearnings for Yvonne are based on:
- a long handshake at a party five years ago
- a general question from one of her assistants about Valentines Day four years ago
- his groundless hope that her wearing (in a recent film) a pendant he gave her six years ago might be some sort of personal message to him

This despite that:
- Yvonne did not respond to a gift of a diamond six years ago
- In the six years since she has offered him no signs of encouragement
- During this time Yvonne has gone on to relationships with other men (she dated Vincent four years ago, then had a three-year relationship with Stephen)
- he feels that Stephen is the only one who can bring Yvonne true happiness

Besides his continuing obsession with the film star, Howard shows these other danger signs in his behavior:
- He has been blaming others for his frustration ("'beating up' his advisors" and "continuously blaming a bunch of people for him losing out on his Big Chance")
- He has been suffering years of chronic re-occurring depressions



I honestly think Howard needs to give up on the woman, and move on. His obsession is bordering on unhealthy. His behavior is deteriorating over a woman who shook his hand five years ago. This is not a good sign.

Howard may need a bit of professional counseling. At the least, he is wasting his time over a woman who is quite obviously not interested. At worst, his behavior may at some point pose a threat to Yvonne.

[Imran Siddiqui]

mindseye... Steven was before, I think, Howard met Yvonne. Vincent is still being dated.

And I didn't know before that Yvonne is an actress, who is in films (well I don't know how famous she is). Perhaps that is part of the obsession. Like, "Damn, I can't believe I could have had Christina Ricci" or something.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
mindseye... Steven was before, I think, Howard met Yvonne. Vincent is still being dated.

Oh, maybe I misunderstood. Here's all I could find:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Yvonne (...) had a date with (Vincent) on Valentine's Day (1999) and started dating him shortly after.
(...) (S)he still hates Stephen, her former boyfriend, who apparently ripped her heart to pieces during their relationship (which lasted) 3 years or so

UR will have to clear this up. If Yvonne is indeed currently dating Vincent, then Howard's behavior is even shadier. Howard has no right to interfere in an ongoing relationship on the basis of a handshake at a fan party five years ago.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And I didn't know before that Yvonne is an actress (...). Perhaps that is part of the obsession.

That seems clear. UR said that Howard is still deeply agitated over "missing his Big Chance". His behavior sounds disturbingly similar to Hollywood stalker stories (years of obsession and depressions over a star who has never shown any significant sign of interest).

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The real question is whether her wearing of the pendant signifies anything or not.

Most likely not. Yvonne is an experienced woman, seems unlikely she would rely on such a long shot approach. It is even less likely if she is currently in a relationship with Vincent. Either way, Howard is desperately grasping at straws.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
Let's get some perspective here.

Howard's years of anguished yearnings for Yvonne are based on:
- a long handshake at a party five years ago

To be fair, it was a bit more than that.

Originally posted by mindseye
- his hope that her wearing (in a recent film) a pendant he gave her six years ago might be some sort of personal message to him

Probably not, but it's hard to think otherwise. She knows that Howard will watch it. It could be an innocent oversight. If it were, however, it was quite a big one, as the pendant appeared in several scenes.

Originally posted by mindseye
- Yvonne did not respond to a gift of a diamond six years ago

Hard to say. She got the gift in 1997 and that fateful event occurred in 1998. Your guess is as good as mine.

Originally posted by mindseye
- In the six years since she has offered him no signs of encouragement

You have to remember she has started dating somebody else since 1999. I'd think Yvonne has to break up with Vincent before she starts offering signs of encouragement. Although Howard swears by Apollo Physician and all sorts of strange names that she often makes indirect references to him in her interviews and newspaper appearances.

Originally posted by mindseye
- During this time Yvonne has gone on to relationships with other men (she dated Vincent four years ago, then had a three-year relationship with Stephen)

You got that backwards. She dated Stephen from 1991-1994, ending with an extremely messy breakup, then with Vincent from 1999 on.

Originally posted by mindseye
- he feels that Stephen is the only one who can bring Yvonne true happiness

No, he thinks himself is the only person to do that.

Originally posted by mindseye
- He has been blaming others for his frustration ("'beating up' his advisors" and "continuously blaming a bunch of people for him losing out on his Big Chance")

I agree that he should have stick his neck out. Hell, if he liked her that much, why would he even bother asking other people? He deserves all this because it's all his own doing. Still, we do have a heart (at least some of us ).

Originally posted by mindseye
His behavior is deteriorating over a woman who shook his hand five years ago.

Held his hand . He seems to be getting better now, IIRC.

Originally posted by mindseye
At the least, he is wasting his time over a woman who is quite obviously not interested.

AFAIK, it's a confusing situation. There has not been any clear "stay away" or "lets just be friends" type messages. Of course, there has not been any "come closer" type messages, either.

Originally posted by mindseye
At worst, his behavior may at some point pose a threat to Yvonne.

Probably won't. If he were to snap, he would have snapped some time ago, I think.

[mindseye]

To be fair, it was a bit more than that.

Okay, but you originally said a "longer than normal handshake" plus a touching of his arm. That's not much of a sign of interest, especially years after the "event'.

Probably not, but it's hard to think otherwise. She knows that Howard will watch it. It could be an innocent oversight. If it were, however, it was quite a big one, as the pendant appeared in several scenes.

Sorry, Howard is grasping at straws. First of all, the film's costume director is usually involved in this kind of decision. Next, Yvonne could not know in advance which scenes would make it through editing (you'd be amazed at how many don't). Combine that with not showing any romantic interest at the time he gave it to her - or since, and the fact that she is currently in a relationship of four years with another guy ... ! With all that, the "secret message" interpretation strikes me as a desperate one.

Hard to say. She got the gift in 1997 and that fateful event occurred in 1998.

If you give someone a diamond and there is no response for months or even a year, that should be taken as a "not interested" message.

I'd think Yvonne has to break up with Vincent before she starts offering signs of encouragement.

Agreed! Given that she has not, Howard should leave her alone, and not interfere with a relationship of four years standing!

Although Howard swears by Apollo Physician and all sorts of strange names that she often makes indirect references to him in her interviews and newspaper appearances.

So the pendant isn't the only "secret message" she's trying to communicate with him ... hmm, another reason for concern over your friend's mental state.

AFAIK, it's a confusing situation. There has not been any clear "stay away" or "lets just be friends" type messages.

What's so confusing? For the last four years the woman has been in a relationship with another man. That's a clear "Stay Away" message in most people's book. How would Howard feel about some guy obsessing over someone he had been in a relationship with for four years? Sounds creepy to me.

[Uncle Sparky]

Tell Howie to go for it... well at least ask her out.... and tell him she should post the results on Apolyton Off Topic... its only for we should know how it turns out... and if they do hit it off, they should name their firstborn Ming or Uncle Sparky or mindseye or MyWifeHatesCiv... like, whatever happened to him anyway... Hey ! Has anyone else here laid carpets for four hours in a poorly ventalated room... man, the glue gets too yoo afder a wi;le...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
That's not much of a sign of interest, especially years after the "event'.

Whether the signs can be considered as significant varies a lot across cultures and is highly dependent on the individual. I don't know Yvonne, but given Chinese women as a whole are passive or reactive in courtship games, initiating a touch can be a lot. Depends on where and how that touch is, of course.

Originally posted by mindseye
If Yvonne is indeed currently dating Vincent, then Howard's behavior is even shadier. Howard has no right to interfere in an ongoing relationship on the basis of a handshake at a fan party five years ago.

Whoa, wait a minute. There's nothing shady about Howard's behaviour, inasmuch as he has done precisely nothing. Besides, he is an honourable person AFAIK. He wouldn't do anything underhanded, like hiring thugs to beat up Vincent, have people set him up, and so forth, even though he certainly has the resources to do so.

Even if he decides to pop the question, the only rule that he might have broken is the Golden Rule. That's not any different from random people hitting on her.

Originally posted by mindseye
That seems clear. UR said that Howard is still deeply agitated over "missing his Big Chance". His behavior sounds disturbingly similar to Hollywood stalker stories (years of obsession and depressions over a star who has never shown any significant sign of interest).

Heavens no. AFAIK, Howard is attracted to Yvonne's person, not some unreal glamorous shell. In fact, he said to me a couple of times, "Wouldn't it be great if Yvonne had gone to a university and would now be a social worker instead?"

Also, Howard knows Yvonne lives, but he keeps it a secret and keeps a wide berth to give her lots of privacy.

Originally posted by mindseye

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The real question is whether her wearing of the pendant signifies anything or not.

Most likely not. Yvonne is an experienced woman, seems unlikely she would rely on such a long shot approach.

You will be surprised that how subtle some Chinese women are.

Originally posted by mindseye
First of all, the film's costume director is usually involved in this kind of decision.

Yes, this is true, but we are talking about Hong Kong moviemaking, where scripts are often incomplete before the shooting starts and budgets are generally low (thus having low production values), clothing accessories are generally not at all of concern.

Don't forget that this is her own pendant. The director certainly would not have knowledge of it. Even if he does, he could not have asked her to use it in the scenes.

Furthermore, some of the scenes do not call for any accessories at all. Like, in one scene, she's just walking around in a tee shirt and shorts, with the pendant on. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Originally posted by mindseye
If you give someone a diamond and there is no response for months or even a year, that should be taken as a "not interested" message.

Could the mere acceptance of the gift be a green light, a go ahead signal? A lot of women will not accept such an expensive item from men they are not interested in.

Originally posted by mindseye
Given that she has not, Howard should leave her alone, and not interfere with a relationship of four years standing!

I completely agree with you, although it is okay for many people to hit on other people's romantic interests (of both sexes).

Originally posted by mindseye
So the pendant isn't the only "secret message" she's trying to communicate with him ... hmm, another reason for concern over your friend's mental state.

He is on pretty solid ground here given the examples he has shown me. Though I can't disclose it because that would give away too much information. It does seem that she takes heed of some of his advices, and refer to some of the things he wrote in letters or e-mails to her. Now, you can argue that there's no causality between what she says and what he writes, but it is quite improbable for them to occur by chance alone.

Originally posted by mindseye
For the last four years the woman has been in a relationship with another man. That's a clear "Stay Away" message in most people's book.

This is a grey area. I don't like it either, but there's always the argument of "I am merely presenting a better alternative for her to choose from."

Besides, it's only an obsession if the motive is unreasonable. Is Howard's desiring Yvonne's hand unreasonable? Afterall, he doesn't just sit there and brood, he doesn't think of dark evil things to do to Vincent (not that I would know ).

[Dang, this becomes an MtG post ]

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The ex-arse Stephen wasn't an abuser, he was a cheater. Yvonne dated him for 3 years or so, and Stephen was having a string of outside girlfriends and affairs.

In the end, she couldn't take it anymore.

How is that not abuse?

Just because he didn't smack her around didn't mean he didn't abuse her.