Schroeder Continues Slide Into The Dustheap Of History

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DanS
I would have to see some figures for the magnitude of these subsidies versus the subsidies that others have received.

I couldn't afford to do a complete search (I have to leave now), but alone according to the financial equalization scheme between the German states Bavaria got 6.6 billion DM from 1950 to 1986, whereas Northrhine-Westphalia paid in it 11.2 billions. This number does not include federal subsidies.

[Atahualpa]

With Hesse being the biggest payer! Sahib once said this. Is he still around?

[DanS]

but alone according to the financial equalization scheme between the German states Bavaria got 6.6 billion DM from 1950 to 1986, whereas Northrhine-Westphalia paid in it 11.2 billions

Do you mean 6.6 billion DM total? That's a pittance over 36 years and wouldn't have any substantial impact on development.

[Harovan]

Well, the Marshall aid for Germany was measly 1.2 billion $ in grants and 200 million $ in loans, and still it helped. Germany was very poor after the war, it was almost completely destroyed and there was not much to share.

I said that's only money out of the financial equation scheme between the states (the rich ones pay into the pot, the poor receive). It does not contain federal subsidies into the road and rail network (which is also true for the other states, but Bavaria as agrarial country was especially poor of infrastructure), it does not contain, that the northern Germans practically paid medical aid (through the solidarically fed medical insurance) and pensions (through the common pension fund) for the Bavarians for decades, when they didn't yet have much to contribute.

If you reread my statement, you will find, that I don't negate the Bavarian economical achievements. The money they got was certainly well invested, whereas others only consumed. But boasting about it is misplaced. Look, the former communist east now gets a huge financial and infrastructural aid. What do you think, would it be right, if they after 36 years being at the receiving end started to point their thumbs on their chests and said "look what we achieved"?

[Lancer]

As long as German leadership keeps running away from problems with its tail between its legs in foriegn policy, the Germans will be generally happy about it. If their barbarian forefathers could see them now they would roll over in their graves. I guess there's just too many guys wereing panties over there, trooping around la dee da...

[Ecthy]

Nice try Lance, noone's falling for it. Go posting in http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...threadid=96372

Well, it does seem that progressive democracy in the west has lost Bavaria to reaction

[Lancer]

Thanks for the link Etc..

[Ecthy]

[DanS]

Ralph: That is a bad example. Indeed it illustrates the relative modesty of the subsidies given to Bavaria. The Marshall Plan was modest in size, and its helpfulness was due primarily to its timeliness. This is so, even though the US directly aided Germany by a larger amount before the Marshall Plan.

It wouldn't be correct for the US to appropriate credit for Germany's economic gains over the last half century, just as I suspect it wouldn't be correct for others to appropriate credit for Bavaria's gains.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I couldn't afford to do a complete search (I have to leave now), but alone according to the financial equalization scheme between the German states Bavaria got 6.6 billion DM from 1950 to 1986, whereas Northrhine-Westphalia paid in it 11.2 billions. This number does not include federal subsidies.

The transfers are pretty much irrelevant. The main advantage for Bavaria was that it had little in old industries, like steel, ship building etc. This has been aggrevated by attempts to keep those old industries alive, you all know your Kohlepfennig.

Just a little check - Austria has been in a quite similar situation as Bavaria, with some extra drawbacks and certainly no external subsidies. And we're only little behind Bavaria in things like GDP per capita.

[Dinner]

Ralph: You need to adjust the Marshell plan money for 60 years worth of inflation.

[Ecthy]

2 words: reac-tion.

[Harovan]

Ok, ok I stand corrected by the economy cracks. And I don't have for myself any problems neither with Bavarians (since I make my money here, that would be ungrateful, wouldn't it?) nor with anyone else. Still I don't like Stoibers boasting, or boasting in general. This applies, btw, to some of our American friends as well.

Oerdin: I know, but that applies to both the Marshall money and the subsidies and is therefor in this discussion pretty much irrelevant.

[Ecthy]

economy cracks? they're just reactionary money nazis