Report: US is #1 in School Spending

[Sava]

Originally posted by JohnT

How about we live in a free society instead where people are allowed to be in politics regardless of their profession?

Even extending to religious leaders ala Pat Robertson?

Pat Robertson can participate all he likes. In the end, the first Amendment is stronger than those who would wish to violate it.

[Kropotkin]

As some of you seems to be really interested in teachers salaries... And talkning about money:

It might be a stupib but fundamental question, are that report taking into consideration the different costs in the different countries. With the help of PPPs for example?

[Giant_Squid]

Not sure how many conclusions you can draw from the original study since education spending is so varied. Saying we spend ten thousand dollars per kid proly means that some kids get a whole lot more and others a whole lot less, which doesn't say anything more about the REAL state of American education than the per capita figures say about the REAL income of those Arab countries with the oil sheiks.

It would be absolutely wonderful to be able to magically say "let's cut bureaucracy" and get more bang for the same level of money. Everyone wants to be able to get a higher quality product for the same amount of money. But we don't (except maybe in California, where I have my suspicions) hire people to twiddle their thumbs behind a desk all day and suck up money. The bureaucrats are all curriculum planners, counselors, superintendents, et cetera. If you want to use the "cut bureaucracy" solution, you'll have to say exactly what jobs you think should be cut if you want it to be more than just a magic bullet.

I say the problem lies with the teaching styles used, mostly.

[JohnT]

My two cents...

Parents are the most important component to education, no if and or buts about it. The only thing that is even close to being as important is the childs own drive and desire to learn. You get a kid who wants to learn (or a family where learning is valued) and it becomes largely irrelevant how much per capita money is being spent in his/her school.

But there's nothing we can do about the above... other than when we are parents, that is.

Otoh, there are things that one can do to improve education, and (imho) the biggest change we can effect is a structural change in the job of teaching. Here in the US up to 40% of a teachers time is spent doing clerical tasks that have very little to do with education - from grading tests to filling out state-required forms (I know this one special ed teacher who must fill out TWENTY-SEVEN forms for every new child admitted into his class - and God forbid that any one of the forms is incorrect because it requires a complete refiling of all TWENTY-SEVEN forms). This vast amount of time essentially means that students are given boiler-plate lesson plans that are easy to fulfill because they are the same lesson plans you used last year.. and the year before that, and the year before that... No chance for the teacher to offer creativity in learning, no time for the teacher to adapt their lesson plans as they go along the school year, no desire to do the extra work necessary to be a proper teacher because, shlt, that'll just require 30 more forms to fill out and hours spent explaining why you deviated from the norm to your principal and any other interested party who thinks that your time is their own. "Fvck that - I'll just rehash the same lesson plans that have never gotten anybody in trouble rather than be creative about it" is the attitude that develops in such a system, and it shows.

Another big problem, one that you rarely hear anybody complain about, is the necessity for teachers to "teach for the test" rather than teaching for understanding. This is almost imperative among American teachers today, especially in states that were stupid enough to offer "Hope Scholarships" (ala the State of Georgia), where a child is "entitled" to a free college education if they maintain a certain GPA + SAT score in school. Why spend any time whatsoever teaching about Asiatic cultures if you know that Asiatic cultures are never asked about on the Iowa (or is it Minnesota) Basic Skills Test, the ACT, or the SAT - to do so, while teaching your students something about the world around them, can leave your otherwise educated students woefully unprepared for the test: and woe be unto the teacher whose students are just "average" on the SAT, especially if Mommy and Daddy are looking for a free handout.

I gotta go, but I'll add some more tonight...

[JohnT]

In regards to point number one, I don't mind if the "bureaucracy" is increased if schools hire "teaching assistants" (or secretaries, as we call them in the business world) to assist in the damn paperwork. 1 for every 3-5 teachers sounds about right.

[monolith94]

"Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097"

That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

[Dinner]

There are some good points in the above posts. The real isue is if we eliminate 17 of those 27 pages of paper work JohnT spoke about then we won't need as many paper pushers back in the headquarters office. Also in the last 20 years I've heard all about how middle managers have been cut in private industry but the number of middlemangers has never been bigger in government. I suspect that a fair number of these managers could be let go if we stream lined the paper work process and maybe automated the forms via computer instead of hand writting them out. That would decrease the duplication of effort and mean we won't need all those desk jockeys to sort through the resulting paperwork.

Ward Connorly's Proposition to kill the California state'sracial satistics bureaucracy is an excellent example of how we can cut useless overhead and redirect funds towards students instead of "advicates" or bureaucrates. When it comes down to it schools, teachers, and teaching assistants are good because they have direct contact with students and all of the other administrators are just a necissary evil which we have to put up with. The best thing is to cap the size of the over head so that we get the most for our students out of the money we already spend.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by monolith94
"Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097"

That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

I have no experience with other states though here in California they seem to be paid just fine for their job. Also they get lots of extra little goodies such as subsidized home loans which let teachers buy houses in the area where they work.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by monolith94
"Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097"

That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

He was talking about per capita income for people in general, not teachers. So that does not necessarily mean that there are teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Solution: Crush the teachers' unions which prevent school reform and harm children while protecting hide bound bureaucrats then pass a law which mandates 75% of all school spending go directly towards students or the facilities which students themselves use instead of the 50% which goes to the bureaucracy like the LA
Unified spends. Top it off with tough standards (which the teachers unions have always opposed BTW) and make sure that every kid who fails the test gets held back even when more black kids fail then white kids.

Yeah -- teachers have such a luxurious salary, don't they?

[Jaguar]

MrFun, Oerdin has cited statistics, which puts him one up on you.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
MrFun, Oerdin has cited statistics, which puts him one up on you.

And statistics can be manipulated.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by MrFun


And statistics can be manipulated.

Yikes, my modem is so slow that you replied before the thread loaded. 17 more days until I get a good one, though.

Anyway, let's see you manipulate some statistics, then.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

Yikes, my modem is so slow that you replied before the thread loaded. 17 more days until I get a good one, though.

Anyway, let's see you manipulate some statistics, then.

It's common knowledge that teachers are under-paid.

As for actual statistics on this, well, I can't be arsed to do that, since I'm too damn lazy.

[Tuberski]

Stop teaching kids that don't want to learn. You are throwing money in the trash when you do that.

That makes smaller class sizes.

ACK!