Gunbattle in Fallujah, Iraq: US, Jordanian forces open fire on Iraqi Police

[Lawrence of Arabia]

A few years ago you were one of the best posters. What has happened?

He's been swept away by the tides of reactionism.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Dear MichaeltheGreat,

It is highly probable that the occupants of the first (chased) vehicle were firing on the American soldiers.
But what makes you believe the occupants of the other vehicles -probably two of which were marked- were also firing on the Americans?

Does it make sense to fire at a vehicle without looking in the direction of that vehicle (and possibly noticing what sort of vehicle it is and its occupants)?

You're missing the point that this happened at 1 am. With or without NV gear, unless you have virtual Berlin wall artificial daylight lighting conditions, muzzle flashes seriously degrade your vision. And the guy who sticks his head up long enough to get a clear picture of who's who and who's shooting who usually doesn't get the chance to convey that information, except when pieces of what used to be his head go flying.

With precisely no relevant facts as to the tactical situation (lighting conditions, forces present and locations, distances and duration of engagement, etc.) most posters here, with no relevant experience either, are second-guessing a sudden engagement at night.

In my view the essential problem is the dismal communication between the 'oppressed people of Iraq' and their 'liberators'. How many American soldiers are by now able to speak some Arabic? Do they know how to approach the Iraqis?

While that may or may not be a problem (and the degree likely varies with the area and threat level) in general, it's hard to apply it here. Communications should be established before you start shooting at night, and again, we have no real info as to whether there were communication and coordination procedures. Everyone is just assuming.

A few years ago you were one of the best posters. What has happened?

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

My patience for trolls has declined.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


He's been swept away by the tides of reactionism.

Whatever floats your boat.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
...
And the guy who sticks his head up long enough to get a clear picture of who's who and who's shooting who usually doesn't get the chance to convey that information, except when pieces of what used to be his head go flying...

You mean that the bad guys have night vision too?

[MichaeltheGreat]

I'm sure that those who want to know the location of fixed emplacements we have at those checkpoints, and that there's some lighting around the checkpoints. At any rate, identifying American military would generally be at least a bit easier than sorting out one set of Iraqis from another.

Otherwise, you either "spray and pray," fire by sector, or return fire in the direction of muzzle flashes or any visible movement (the movement often turns out to be phantom).

[Chemical Ollie]

There you have the American doctrine again - "Spray and Pray". Unfortunately, God will not help you on this issue.

It is not a co-incidence that US is the top on all statistics for "most news reporters killed", "most allies killed", "most friendly fire incidents", "most neutral embassies bombed", etc, etc, etc...

To win the hearts of people, you must drop your trigger-happy cowboy attitudes.

(I bet the Russians would win the "most innocent civilians killed" contest though)

[Gatekeeper]

I find it ironic that MtG has been labeled a "reactionary" by some on this board. I bet they weren't saying that when he was in agreement with their positions ... but, hey, anything goes once a guy's no longer on your side, eh?

Heh. MtG, there's times I don't agree with you, and there's times I do agree with you. I understand that's a normal thing with human beings — it's rare that we all walk in lockstep with one another 100 percent of the time. And if we do, perhaps it's time we took a closer look at ourselves in the mirror.

Gatekeeper

[Boris Godunov]

Butt kisser!

[Gatekeeper]

Boris, I'm going to assume you said that in jest.

[Boris Godunov]

Sycophannykisser!

[Chemical Ollie]

Sorry guys, if I don't go to bed now, my wife will kill me. In any case, my kids will wake up in 3-4 hours. I may return to the discussion tomorrow night or on Sunday.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
There you have the American doctrine again - "Spray and Pray". Unfortunately, God will not help you on this issue.

It is not a co-incidence that US is the top on all statistics for "most news reporters killed", "most allies killed", "most friendly fire incidents", "most neutral embassies bombed", etc, etc, etc...

Yep. That's because, Force Protection is the #1 Priority of the US Armed Forces at this stage of the game.

To win the hearts of people, you must drop your trigger-happy cowboy attitudes.

(I bet the Russians would win the "most innocent civilians killed" contest though)

That's where Force Protection and PR work against each other, unfortunately. As the attacks increased in the Sunni Triangle and Baghdad increased, US Patrols went from walking the streets to driving around in Humvees with .50 cals. Not exactly something that endears them to the locals.

In fact, I recall on NPR when they were talking to locals (today) one Iraqi said " We would prefer for them to just walk around and interact with us, instead they just drive around in Hummvees, with their armor and Helmets".

It's worth mentioning in other parts of the country, Coalition forces are walking around in caps, no kevlar, with rifles slung, and chatting animately with the locals. These are places where they aren't getting shot at on a regular basis (Karbala, Najaf, Basra, etc.)

It's a lot easier to win the hearts and minds if you don't look like you're ready to kill the first person to cross you. Unfortunately for PR, Force Protection comes first.

[Ted Striker]

Why is the ******* who started this thread LAUGHING?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The reality remains that **** does happen.

Sure does, including places such as Seoul, Okinawa, and Italy, in addition to Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Ted Striker]

Manchuria