Culture

[Japher]

Islam is a religion!!! I always thought it was a school for terrorists, psycho-nut-jobs, and DLs!!!

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Japher
I always thought it was a school for terrorists, psycho-nut-jobs, and DLs!!!

How does that differ from a religion?

[Kuciwalker]

Religion, AFAIK, doesn't usually spawn DL's.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by skywalker
Religion, AFAIK, doesn't usually spawn DL's.

[Japher]

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ramo
There are a number of caveats of this story that anti-Moslem propaganda usually leaves out.
1. This story was recorded by only one chronicler of the period. Either all of the others seemed to have ignored the story or it didn't happen. In its specific details, it also is extremely similar with an earlier story (Biblical IIRC), which points towards the latter explanation. Assuming that I'm mistaken:

I'm no specialist in the subject, so I won't argue.
But if You do remember it, was the chronicler Muslim or what?

2. According to the story, Mohammed's actions in this instance were in the capacity of a man, not a prophet. In other words, they weren't divinely inspired, merely political.

According to my knowledge, based on M. Gaudefroy-Demombynes' book, Muhammad said to Sad Ibn Mu'az: "You decided according to the order that God gave You from hights"
And You can't divide between Muhammad-politician and Muhammad-the prophet. It's not quite possible, as even the parts of the words said to be his that are not part of Qur'an, are treated as a base for the law having religious sanction. The thought is "if the prophet said this, it can't be wrong" "if the prophet did that, it can't be wrong" etc...

3. Only one Jewish tribe tribe (which as you mentioned renegged on their agreement, and betrayed their fellow Medinians to the Meccan invaders) was targetted, and only the men were killed (the women and children were enslaved).

I know that; the two other tribes were "only" expelled or something, and "only" men were killed, while the women and children were "onlY" enslaved.
It can't be proven that Banu Qurayza actually betrayed the Muslims... Some believe they were targeted for their posessions which were needed for the emigrants...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

I know that; the two other tribes were "only" expelled or something, and "only" men were killed, while the women and children were "onlY" enslaved.
It can't be proven that Banu Qurayza actually betrayed the Muslims... Some believe they were targeted for their posessions which were needed for the emigrants...

Isaiah 37,36:

'Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand:and when they rose early in the morning, behold they were all dead corpses.'

So Moses, or Elijah or Zebedee didn't do it, but Yahweh arranged it. Is it o.k. if god does it on behalf of his faithful, but not the faithful themselves? And don't forget the first born of Egypt- killed for being Egyptian.

Let's face it, anybody can say that the almighty or the great ones or the big yongi bongi bo is on their side, then say they have carte blanche to do anything, or assign any natural occurrence (such as illness, plague, famine, etc.) to divine intervention on their behalf.

Timur Lenk said he had been sent by god as a scourge, and although a Muslim, killed Muslims by the hundreds of thousands, Shi'a and Sunni alike.

Catholics kill Protestants, Protestants have killed Catholics, Jews Muslims, Muslims Jews, and all can claim a divine imprimatur for their actions, should they be of a mind to do so.

[rina]

THE SWORD OF ISLAM

The first few who embraced the "new" religion in Makkah in the Arabian Peninsula at the hands of the Prophet, were few. They simply couldn't resist the MAGIC SWORD of a humble and lonely Prophet? The negligible minority of the believers in this new Faith was soon exiled from Makkah and they arrived in the city called Yathreb which later became known as MADINAH. The Muslim emigrants to Madinah brought their SWORD with them. The SWORD continued to work and its magnetic force continued to "pull" people towards it until the whole of Arabia joined the Faith. Compared to the population of the rest of the world at that time, the Arabs constituted a tiny minority. A fraction of this minority decided to take the SWORD beyond the boundaries of the Arabian desert to the mighty Mediterranean, the coast of Malabar and the far away East Indies Islands. People after people continued surrendering to this SWORD and joining the Faith.
So sharp was the edge of the SWORD! It simply conquered the hearts; bodies yielded automatically. It is the SWORD OF TRUTH, whose mere shine eliminates falsehood just like light wipes away darkness.
HAS THE SWORD GONE BLUNT? NO, FAR FROM IT.
It Continues to pierce the hearts of countless men and women today - in spite of the relentless efforts by persons with vested interests who like darkness to prevail, so that they may rob people of their good things. Read below the impressions of some who were recently conquered by the same SWORD. They are from different countries, speak different languages and have different backgrounds. Their present addresses are also given. Perhaps you may like to ask them how it feels to be struck by the SWORD OF TRUTH.
1. LEOPOLD WEISS (now Mohammed Asad): Austrian statesman, journalist, former foreign correspondent for the Frankfurter Zeitung; author of Islam at Cross Roads and Road to Mecca and translator of the Qur'an. He embraced Islam in 1926.
"Islam appears to me like a perfect work of Architecture. All its parts are harmoniously conceived to complement and support each other. Nothing is superfluous and nothing lacking, with the result of an absolute balance and solid composure."
2. AHMED HOLT: British Civil Contractor, traveler in search of the Divine truth, spent much of his time in research and comparative study of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He embraced Islam in 1975.
"The SWORD OF ISLAM is not the sword of steel. I know this by experience, because the sword of Islam struck deep into my own heart. It didn't bring death, but it brought a new life; it brought an awareness and it brought an awakening as to who am I and what am I and for what am I here?"
3. BOGDAN KOPANSKI (now Bogdan Ataullah Kopanski)riginally Polish, now American; Ph.D. in history and politics, had a very interesting journey to Islam and faced severe hardships; was imprisoned twice by the Polish communist regime (1968, 1981-82). He embraced Islam in 1974.
"When I was 12 years old I rejected illogical and contradictory faith of the Church. Two years later in 1962 I was fascinated by the victorious struggle of the Algerian Muslim mujahideen against French colonialism. It was the first arrow of Islam...The high school and earliest days of my education in the University, I was a typical example of the 'rebel generation' of Reds...My way to the Truth of Al-Qur'an was slow and unpaved... In 1974 I visited Turkey, I wrote my M.A. dissertation about Sultan and Caliph Suleiman Kanuni's policy towards the Polish Kingdom. There I was hit by the most beautiful voice of mankind, Adhan, the call to prayer. My hair stood up. An unknown, powerful force led me to an old masjid in Istanbul. There, old, smiling, Turkish bearded men taught me Wuzu, ablution. I confessed to tears, Shahada, and I prayed my first Salah Maghrib...I swept out the rubbish ideologies...The first time in my life, my mind was relaxed and I felt the pleasure of Allah's love in my heart. I was a Muslim..."
4-VENGATACHALAM ADIYAR (now Abdullah Adiyar): Indian, noted Tamil writer and journalist; worked as a news editor inn Dr. M. Karunanidhi's daily Murasoli for 17 years; assisted 3 former Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. Received Kalaimamani Award (Big Gem of Arts) from Tamil Nadu Government in 1982. He embraced Islam in 1987.
"In Islam I found suitable replies to nagging queries arising n my mind with regard to the theory of creation, status of woman, creation of universe, etc. The life history of the holy Prophet attracted me very much and made easy for me to compare with other world leaders and their philosophies."
5. HERBERT HOBOHM (now Aman Hobohm): German diplomat, missionary and social worker. An intellectual who has been serving the German diplomatic missions in various parts of the world. Presently working as Cultural Attache in German Embassy in Riyadh. He embraced Islam in 1941.
"I have lived under different systems of life and have had the opportunity of studying various ideologies, but have come to the conclusion that none is as perfect as Islam. None of the systems has got a complete code of a noble life, Only Islam has it' and that is why good men embrace it. Islam is not theoretical; it is practical. It means complete submission to the will of God."
6. CAT STEVENS (now Yusuf Islam): British; formerly a Christian and a world famous pop singer. He embraced Islam in 1973.
"It will be wrong to judge Islam in the light of the behavior of some bad Muslims who are always shown on the media. It is like judging a car as a bad one if the driver if the car is drunk and he bangs it into the wall. Islam guides all human beings in daily life - in it's spiritual, mental and physical dimensions. But we must find the sources of these instruction, the Qur'an and the example of the Prophet. then we can see the ideal of Islam."
7. MARGARET MARCUS (now Maryam Jamilah): American; formerly a Jews, essayist and author of many books. She embraced Islam in 1962.
"The authority of Islamic Morals and Laws proceeds from Almighty God. Pleasure and happiness in Islam are but the natural byproducts of emotional satisfaction in one's duties conscientiously performed for the pleasure of God to achieve salvation. In Islam duties are always stressed above rights. Only in Islam was my quest for absolute values satisfied. Only in Islam did I at last find all that was true, good, beautiful and which gives meaning and direction to human life and death.
8. M. HOFFMAN (now Murad Hoffman): Ph.D. in law (Harvard); German social scientist and diplomat; presently German Ambassador in Algeria. He embraced Islam in 1980.
"For some time now, striving for more and more precision and brevity, I have tried to put on paper in a systematic way, all philosophical truths, which in my view, can be ascertained beyond reasonable doubt. In the course of this effort it dawned on me that the typical attitude of an agnostic is not an intelligent one; that man simply cannot escape a decision to believe; that the createdness of what exists around us is obvious; that Islam undoubtedly finds itself in the greatest harmony with overall reality. Thus I realize, not without shock, that step by step, in spite of myself and almost unconsciously, n feeling and thinking I have grown into a Muslim. Only one last step remained to be taken: to formalize my conversion. As of today I am a Muslim. I have arrived."
9. CASSIUS CLAY (now Muhammad Ali): American; three times World Heavyweight Champion, formerly a Christian. He embraced Islam in 1965.
"I have had many nice moments in my life. But the feelings I had while standing on Mount Arafat on the day of Hajj ( Muslims' pilgrimage), was the most unique. I felt exalted by the indescribable spiritual atmosphere there as over a million and a half pilgrims invoked God to forgive them of their sins and bestow on them His choicest blessings. It was an exhilarating experience to see to people belonging to different colors, races and nationalities, kings, heads of states and ordinary men from very poor countries all clad in two simple white sheets praying to God without any sense of either pride or inferiority. It was a practical manifestation of the concept of equality in Islam."
(Speaking to the daily "Al-Madinah" Jeddah, 15 July, 1989)
These were the impressions of a few persons who had themselves been struck by the SWORD OF TRUTH, that is, the Message of Islam.
AS FOR THE PROPAGANDA THAT IT WAS THE SWORD OF STEEL, THAT IS, FORCE, WHICH WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE UNIVERSAL EXPANSION OF ISLAM, WE GIVE BELOW QUOTATIONS FROM THE WRITING OF SOME OF THE PROMINENT NON-MUSLIM SCHOLARS AND LEADERS REFUTING THIS BASELESS ACCUSATION.
1. M. K. GANDHI: "...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924
2. EDWARD GIBBON: "The greatest success of Mohammed's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword." HISTORY OF THE SARACEN EMPIRE, London, 1870
3. A. S. TRITTON: "The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false." ISLAM, London, 1951, p. 21
4. DE LACY O'LEARY: "History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslim, sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." ISLAM AT CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8
5. K. S. RAMAKRISHNA RAO: "My problem to write this monograph is easier because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam, there is no compulsion in religion, is well known." MOHAMMED THE PROPHET OF ISLAM, Riyadh, 1989, p. 4
6. JAMES A. MICHENER: "No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam...The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts that idea, and the Qur'an is explicit in support of the freedom of conscience." ISLAM - THE MISUNDERSTOOD RELIGION, READERS' DIGEST (American Edition) May 1955
7. LAWRENCE E. BROWNE: "Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword." THE PROSPECTS OR ISLAM, London, 1944.

[Ramo]

I'm no specialist in the subject, so I won't argue.
But if You do remember it, was the chronicler Muslim or what?

Yep, he was Moslem.

According to my knowledge, based on M. Gaudefroy-Demombynes' book, Muhammad said to Sad Ibn Mu'az: "You decided according to the order that God gave You from hights"

Can you cite more? Sounds to me that this might be out of context.

And You can't divide between Muhammad-politician and Muhammad-the prophet. It's not quite possible, as even the parts of the words said to be his that are not part of Qur'an, are treated as a base for the law having religious sanction. The thought is "if the prophet said this, it can't be wrong" "if the prophet did that, it can't be wrong" etc...

Most Moslems do not believe this. Almost every (if not every) Moslem I know does not believe this. Mohammed isn't thought to be a perfectly divine, but a fallible human.

I know that; the two other tribes were "only" expelled or something, and "only" men were killed, while the women and children were "onlY" enslaved.

Umm.. they weren't expelled AFAIK. And I'm not justifying the actions attributed to Mohammed, just fixing your errors.

It can't be proven that Banu Qurayza actually betrayed the Muslims... Some believe they were targeted for their posessions which were needed for the emigrants...

According to the single source we have on the event, they were not targetted for this reason. I don't see any particular reason to argue (particularly, as the source probably fabricated the story).

And of course it can't be proven what happened. It's entirely possible that UFO's abducted everyone in Medina.

[Ramo]

Cat Stevens!
This has got to be a DL.

[Elok]

We need a Celebrity Deathmatch between you and Jack Chick. Winner gets to proselytize Utah.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom

So Moses, or Elijah or Zebedee didn't do it, but Yahweh arranged it. Is it o.k. if god does it on behalf of his faithful, but not the faithful themselves? And don't forget the first born of Egypt- killed for being Egyptian.

That only proves Jews are wrong, not that Christians are;
The teachings of the Old Testament aren't necessarily part of Christian teaching.

Let's face it. , anybody can say that the almighty or the great ones or the big yongi bongi bo is on their side, then say they have carte blanche to do anything, or assign any natural occurrence (such as illness, plague, famine, etc.) to divine intervention on their behalf.

Timur Lenk said he had been sent by god as a scourge, and although a Muslim, killed Muslims by the hundreds of thousands, Shi'a and Sunni alike.

Catholics kill Protestants, Protestants have killed Catholics, Jews Muslims, Muslims Jews, and all can claim a divine imprimatur for their actions, should they be of a mind to do so. [/QUOTE]

Of course, obscurantism is present amongst theoretical members of any society... You're not proving anything by it. the difference is that while obscurantism is visible in person of Muhammad and his preaching, it can't be found in Jesus' one. That's only my personal opinion, of course, but I believe it is true

Originally posted by rina

Except for Cassius Clay and Cat Stevens, no reknown man embraced Islam. That's little And why should their apostacy convince me to Islam...? Are they kind of giants of intelectual might? Or are they a cheap singer and a guy who earned for his life beating people...
I don't even know this Kopanski, and I'm a Pole. If You don't know, national hero of Poland and Hungary, general Bem, embraced Islam as well, but for political reasons.
When it comes
to your blabling about the sword of Islam... What are You trying to prove? That if not the conquests, Islam would triumpf over southern and eastern Mediterrean as well?
Try to prove that.

M. K. GANDHI

You give me an opinion, but without any proof for it.
What was Gandhi supposed to say, anyway?

there is no compulsion in religion, is well known

I know this part... But the truth is that there are other passages that negate this one... And the practic was always different - as was the one of Christianity, but unlike it, it was such from the start. I treat Islam as Muhammad's reapproach of understanding of a monotheistic religion. Interesting, but definitely not divine.
Christianity had misinterpretations, and is corrupted by them up to today, though the core of it is visible for those, who wish to see. Islam is one great misinterpreatation of Christianity

No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam...

How come there is twice as many Christians as Muslims, then?

the greatest success of Mohammed's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword

It is true when it comes to the entrance of Madina... But not anything else.

[quote]
"The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.
[/quote}

History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslim, sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated

It's kind of manipulation; those quotes fight the opinion that everyone who fell under Muslim jurisdiction had to embrace Islam. That was a common opinion, and it was not QUITE truth; it depended on the situation, but it was like that pretty often. The other ways that Muslims were forcing conversions were much higher taxes for dhimmis,
and I think it was a deceisive thing when it comes to such places as Syria or Egypt. When it comes to Maghrib (by which I mean not Morocco only, but mostly Tunisia and Algeria), the exodus of clergy was an important factor as well... When it comes to Arabia itself, Christians were just expelled during early caliphate, etc. Being Muslim under Muslim rule was just profitable, and that was the main thing that attracted people. But I can't deny religious passion of many Muslims. But the truth is that the most pius a caliph was, the more intolerable to dhimmis he was.
Do You believe that the four first caliphs were legal successors of Muhammad? And Umayyads? And Abbasids? If so, had their actions God's sanction?

The negligible minority of the believers in this new Faith was soon exiled from Makkah and they arrived in the city called Yathreb which later became known as MADINAH.

Simplified and not quite truth

(particularly, as the source probably fabricated the story).

Yep, he was Moslem.

So why would He write something bad about Muhammad?
Why do You question his reliability?If other sources do not inform about it, it may be because they tried to hide what happened. And if the stoty is not true, what happened to Banu Qurayza, then?

Can you cite more? Sounds to me that this might be out of context.

Doubt it, but I can't cite more - it's only this part in the book. I'll try to find the surrounding text when I'll be in Warsaw, though.

Most Moslems do not believe this. Almost every (if not every) Moslem I know does not believe this. Mohammed isn't thought to be a perfectly divine, but a fallible human.

Perhaps, but that's the core of Muslim law. An example;
creating images of people is forbidden, but not when it comes to toys. Why? Because a hadith says something like "Muhammad entered a room A'isha played with a dall in it and sat and watched her.". And so, he didn't condemn her play, and it was a reason for the muslim scholars not to dorbid making dalls.
Perhaps Muslims do not claim that He was perfect, but they treat him as such. And anyway; if He was fallible, why should I trust him?

Umm.. they weren't expelled AFAIK. And I'm not justifying the actions attributed to Mohammed, just fixing your errors.

I don't think I've made an error, yet I can't prove it, as well as You can't.

According to the single source we have on the event, they were not targetted for this reason. I don't see any particular reason to argue

I see. It was a Muslim chronicler, so He tried to justify Muhammad's actions. Isn't that obvious?

[rina]

Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living.

To be fair I would like to clarify the misunderstanding of Islam faith

The Islamic system of belief is a set of principles pertaining to the Creator, to prophecy, and to the unseen, which includes such matters as the existence of angels, the Resurrection, and the Last Day. It deals with anything that the Messengers have informed about on the basis of revelation – the teachings that they commanded to believe in with certainty while knowing that everything to the contrary is false.

The Islamic Understanding of Religious Faith

Religion, as defined by the Qur’an, is made up of four components:

1. A Higher Power having dominion. In Islam, this Power is Allah.

2. Obedience and submission to this Higher Power.

3. A collection of beliefs, ideas, and laws, all of which are under the authority of this Higher Power.

4. The recompense that is attained by those who follow and uphold this faith to the extent of their acceptance of it and their sincerity, as well as the recompense that is earned by those who go against it.

In short, religious faith is: Belief in a divine being, along with obedience and worship, in conformity with the sacred texts that define the attributes of this Being and set down the divine injunctions that depict how this Being should be worshipped.

RATIONAL EVIDENCE

1. The natural inclination for religious faith is an integral part of the human essence. This is an indisputable fact of history. All scholars of comparative religion, regardless of their own religious backgrounds, agree that religious belief is a natural human condition. They differ, however about its origins.

An objective discussion of the topic, however, will lead to the following:

A. Many researchers have tended to believe that mythology is the primary source of religious faith. This theory makes man’s religious tendency the result of outside influences; first he hears a number of these fables that are passed down from one generation to the next, then he believes in them. It is clear; however, that this view fails to explain how this natural tendency appears in the human psyche in every society and culture on Earth throughout human history. The scholars of religious history are fully agreed on this fact, as well as the scholars of human civilization. Likewise, the above-mentioned theory fails to give a convincing explanation of how this uniquely reoccurring phenomenon continues to have such an affect throughout the world’s societies.

B. Some researchers have forwarded the idea that religious behavior started in pagan societies, inspired by the fear and dread that people had for certain powerful forces of nature and the grand natural objects that they saw such as mountains and stars. Thereafter, they began to personify these objects. From here, they began to address them and petition them in one way or another. This developed into acts of worship with specific rites and rituals that the devotees would perform.

The criticism of this opinion is as follows:

This opinion implies that the human being has a natural tendency to seek out something to worship and that there is a natural feeling that this object of worship must possess greatness.

The fact that pagan societies always worship a plurality of beings – never restricting themselves to worshipping, for example, one mountain or one star – is an indication that man, in reality, naturally seeks an overwhelming Higher Power and compensates for this by taking a collection of deities. This shows that he feels a need for a power outside of his natural environment that he can turn to when all the material powers around him fail.

2. The phenomenon of religion, that manifests itself in a quest for a Higher Power, is universal to mankind. It cannot be substituted for by any other human affection, like self-preservation, tribalism, or nationalism. Likewise, there have been a number of religious people in the world possessing genius who are not appeased merely by the strength of feeling that they have for something unknown. It would be possible to declare these brilliant people as insane if this unknown that they believed in did not deserve the attention of every human being, but the reality is that this unknown is more deserving of attention than all other things in existence.

This religious sense has achieved a great importance in the intellectual life of man, whereby the world of the unseen has become part of what man can believe in for his practical life instead of merely belonging to the world of imagination and fancy.

This was an intellectual victory, since the effects of this were not restricted to the world of religious beliefs and creeds, but extended to all existence, opening the doors of research in all things that cannot be perceived by the senses. If mankind had continued to deny everything that he could not perceive with his senses, religion would not have been the only thing to suffer; quite the contrary, the sciences, ethics and other branches of knowledge would have lost out as well.

Allah is the creator of mankind and therefore knows his nature more intricately than mankind himself. Allah has therefore chosen a religion that goes neither to the extremes of hardship nor of laxity, but instead provides a middle path; in other words, a religion of ease. Allah said;

"Allah intends for you ease, and does not want to make things difficult for you" [2:185]; and "Allah does not want to place you in difficulty" [5:6].

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by rina
Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

Yep, that´s the problem.

[BeBMan]

BTW, does Allah believe in me?