Sandman, I can hardly imagine a democracy starting an unjust war. Britain and the United States were both behind the war on Saddam. That should settle the issue of whether the war was "just."
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Ned -I say stop the debate after the war starts. Once it starts, we need to see that it comes to a swift and victorious solution.
There is a distinction between those who oppose a war before it starts and those who demonstrate against it after. I have a real problem with the latter and no problem at all with the former.
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Ned -Sandman, I can hardly imagine a democracy starting an unjust war. Britain and the United States were both behind the war on Saddam. That should settle the issue of whether the war was "just."
The US Civil War? The Mexican-American war? All those Indian wars? Or our various ventures into Latin America to protect the interests of the United Fruit Company et al? And the fact we can find another leader to commit troops to our cause against the will of his people is hardly convincing.
BTW, the vast majority of the American public supported the War on Saddam. Not 100%, to be sure. But well over 60%, IIRC.
Johnson had similar support behind him when Vietnam first began.
His problem is that he listened too much to the anti-war types in Congress and did not trust in the confidence the American people place in him to win that war.
I have no idea why Truman went pacifist right in the middle of the Korean War. That war was winnable. But clearly he lost the confidence of the American people when he fired MacArthur. It is strange to have an anti-war type as president.
As I said earlier, I reacted with disgust when I heard the same crap out of some Republicans concerning Clinton's wars. Bull****.
There is an old saying that sums up my attitude: Politics ends at the borders during the time of war. The enemy must know they face a united and determined American people.
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Ned:
I'm curious to know what is the "anti-American" side of your political spectrum. Surely those who oppose the war must hate America and and only crave to see her on her knees
Besides, I remember our favorit "I support the troops" prez (GW Bush) was the one who cut off benefits for veterans right during the war. Heck, even I support the American troops more than this guy
Berzerker:
Just a little quibble: you don't have France to thank for Vietnam, but only yourselves. The Vietnamese independance was agreed in 1954 and we were definitely out after that. You went in later when you saw the commies were making progress in newly independent Vietnam."I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
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The Veitnam war was because Veitnam supported the Commies (under Ho Chi Min) and we were hyper-paranoid so we put in a bloody dictator (Diem) that butchered Buddists. It was just a super-sized version of the crap we pulled in Latin America and it came to bite us in the ass.
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The true patriot stand for the value of the country, and does whatever he/she can to further them. If that means objecting to some government policy (and war is just that, POLICY) then the true patriot must stand against the policy. Demanding obidience to a particular policy in the name of patriotism is the way of dictators. By your definiton the men who tried to kill Hitler were traitors, since once the war begun every german should have been backing 100% the policies of the regime and the men carrying them out..no question asked, no voices raised, no arguement given... THAT IS NOT, SHALL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE DEMOCRACY. You claim you stand for freedom: saying that debate must EVER stop is an affront to freedom of the worst kind.If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Ned
WWII was a success in large measure because we did not have anti-war types "supporting our troops." When a country is fully behind the war effort, it is more easily winnable, minimizing casualties, etc. Trying to defeat a war effort while the war is on is not "supporting our troops."
People need to think there is a sufficiently good reason for war if they are to support it. The war has to be worth risking American lives.
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Another thing:
as far as I can tell, only on president ever (Polk in 1844) was eelcted on a relatively belligerent policy. No other president in American history ever got into the WH by asking for, or campaining for war. Many have won promising to stay out of, or getting out of a war. But the people vote only every 2 years, every four years for the executive. We do not go to war on referendums, which means policy makers can and do) get the nation involved militarilly. By your words Ned, you seem to argue that support for a war must be unconditional once it begins..would you then cancel wartime elctions? isn;t supporting the troops the same as supporting the military, who's chief commander is the president? How dare anyone then challange the Commander in chief during a time of war?
But the fact is that in the US, rule of the people means being able to shift policy at any time: even in wartime, EVEN during a civil war. That is being true to America, to its values, NOT asking for debate to end once a particuar political administration has gotten the polity involved in a war, even a war for the very survival of the polity.If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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By your words Ned, you seem to argue that support for a war must be unconditional once it begins..would you then cancel wartime elctions? isn;t supporting the troops the same as supporting the military, who's chief commander is the president? How dare anyone then challange the Commander in chief during a time of war?
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Originally posted by GePap
The true patriot stand for the value of the country, and does whatever he/she can to further them. If that means objecting to some government policy (and war is just that, POLICY) then the true patriot must stand against the policy. Demanding obidience to a particular policy in the name of patriotism is the way of dictators. By your definiton the men who tried to kill Hitler were traitors, since once the war begun every german should have been backing 100% the policies of the regime and the men carrying them out..no question asked, no voices raised, no arguement given... THAT IS NOT, SHALL NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE DEMOCRACY. You claim you stand for freedom: saying that debate must EVER stop is an affront to freedom of the worst kind.
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We turned against the Vietnam war when it became clear that Johnson was lying to us and had no strategy for victory. All he offered us is an endless, bloody stalemate. Certainly, if a commander in chief so screws up, we should replace him. We replaced Johnson and Truman essentially because the people formed the considered opinion that our commander in chiefs had failed.
The people who were against war because they were on the other side, such as Jane Fonda, were never in the majority. However, their protests enormously influenced the North to continue the fight rather than to seriously negotiate.
What could have happened in SV is Congress cutting back on financial support while Johnson wanted to continue to fight. This may have resulted in a disaster. So much for "supporting the troops" while opposing the war.
During our revolutionary war, many continued to want to stay with the Crown. However, to say the least, their attitude was less than helpful if not downright treasonous.
Ditto anyone who supported North Vietnam during that ugly war.
Spiffor, you have to admit that many if not the vast majority who marched in opposition to the war were overwhelmingly anti-American. They viewed the United States as the problem, not Iraq's Saddam Hussein. President Bush was cast as the ultimate evil, while cute and cuddly Saddam and his lovably sons became the hope of anti-American world for their valiant stand against Imperialism. (Am I that far off?)http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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