"I am behind the troops, but.." = "I am not racist, but..."

[Berzerker]

Let me see, supporting the troops means watching them go off to be killed and being against them is wanting them to remain safely at home - I got it now.

But we have this Orwelian nonsense here too, even more so. If you don't support Bush and the GOP's policies, you hate America. If you don't support the Democrats and their socialistic disasters, you hate the poor. If you don't support the desire of the Dems and Reps to stick their noses into half the world thereby creating enemies for the troops to die fighting, you are an "isolationist" who hates...well...you hate something I'm sure...

Can one love their country and hate their government at the same time? The only problem is that the GOP (even more than the Dems) seems to equate their desires with "America"...I wish I had a dollar for every time a Republican said I hated America for opposing their plans for the world and for me...

[Whaleboy]

The battlecry of all good little drones

Its an idiotic argument. As Bezerker is saying, its possible to love your nation and dislike the actions of your government. I personally don't love my country, I am often critical of the actions of the government, but I don't want to see anybody getting killed out there, civilians or soldiers. I don't take preferences there because I see through the fallacy of perceived national superiority, thus all human loss in Iraq is equally tragic. On the other hand, British/US troops are away from their families, their homes etc, so one wishes them well and a speedy return. You could argue that this is renaged because they are invaders and aggressors, and while that is true, the aggression was committed by the donkeys that lead these lions.

Even if you were opposed to the war, you can be behind the troops, as am I! They're ordinary people, good men doing a job and following orders. I cant expect ordinary people to have the great fortitude it requires to mutiny, even if they agree with me, which they are free not to do so.

If you're behind the troops, you'd support what theyw ere trying to achieve out there.

Bull. I support the men out there, not the missions they are performing. Not the uniforms they are wearing and not the guns they are carrying, but the men inside.

Why support the troops if you oppose the war? They volonteered, despite knowing they might be sent to some place where they shouldn't be, didn't they?

When in the army, one is ordered.

Bodds does have a case to a point though, lets be fair. How many people who say "but I am behind the troops", say so for political correctness. They probably do, but it adds inconsistency to an article opposed to war, whereas one, if you include it for the soldiers sake, not your credibility, should specify it in a more consistent, in depth and concise way.

Supporting the troops out there is something that transcends whether or not you supported the war. Like I said, from my perspective, lions led by donkeys.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by MikeH
It's probably something to do with this ridiculous idea that Bush and co have put out that not supporting the government/war is unpatriotic.

The whole "Patriot Act' and 'Defense of the Homeland' BS, was a means to that end, if you opposed the Patriot Act you were by (their) definition unpatriotic

[Whaleboy]

reds: Ironic really, considering that the USA PATRIOT act and Defense of Homeland were things that fly in the face of the "founding fathers", and the principles of the US constitution, though taking advantages of loopholes presumably.

[Berzerker]

if you opposed the Patriot Act you were by (their) definition unpatriotic

Of course, they'd never call such a piece of trash "The Traitor Act".

[Whaleboy]

Tyrannical Reforms Associated with Idiots To Overtly Repress

[Sandman]

I don't think that it's possible to love your country and hate your government. The nation is usually an explicit creation of the government, aimed at keeping power.

Is it possible to hate your country and love your government?

[red_jon]

Were the troops conscripts, yes I'd support them, as it is I don't. They're volunteers to participate in a war I oppose. That doesn't mean I want to see them die, any more than I want any civilians to die.

[Whaleboy]

I don't think that it's possible to love your country and hate your government. The nation is usually an explicit creation of the government, aimed at keeping power.

A nation is the combined history, culture and people of within your shores. The government are only the people who deal with the "pieces of paper" that a nation is. Of course, all of those definitions are meaningless to me, a nation quite simply is non-existent.

I agree with red_jons position, I don't want to see them die any more or less than civilians. They're all human, they're all deserving of equal consideration from me. Nonetheless, they were ordered, and these people are in the army because they can follow orders, not because they are renowned for their independent thought. Its not suprising that they are the people most susceptible to be told what to think, along with the uneducated and the plain ignorant (rant over).

I view conscription as a crime, so if that was the case, I would merely levee that as another charge against the donkeys.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by red_jon
Were the troops conscripts, yes I'd support them, as it is I don't. They're volunteers to participate in a war I oppose. That doesn't mean I want to see them die, any more than I want any civilians to die.

Yes, the troops voluteered, but they had every reasonable expectation that, in case of war, they would at least be used sensibly and well. They haven't been.

This is a little like saying you have no sympathy for the thousands of workers who lost their pensions in the Enron scandal because, hey, they chose to work in the corporate private sector, didn't they?

[Berzerker]

I don't think that it's possible to love your country and hate your government. The nation is usually an explicit creation of the government, aimed at keeping power.

Is it possible to hate your country and love your government?

Good question, but the country is more than the government, alot more. The country is also me, my family, my friends, and those acquaintances I respect and care about in addition to the government and all that constitutes "society". But there are things about people who fit into the categories I've named that I don't like just as there are things I don't like about the government...the difference I guess is there are so few things I like about the government and so many I despise. If that were true for the people I love I might not love them...

I just wish these people who label political opponents as "America haters" would be more truthful, it isn't about hating America, it's about hating them and their immoral desires. It's terribly arrogant for these people to equate their political agenda with "America". These people are also hypocrites, I never heard any Republicans claim they hated America when they opposed the policies of Democrats and Clinton's little wars in distant lands... So why the double standard?

[Whaleboy]

Berzerker: Personally I find it to be a fundamental lack of respect for the opinions, views, and potential validity even in subjective eyes of the point of view of others.

Can't we just agree to disagree?

[Elok]

Eh. Rufus already said all that needs to be said to this back in his first response, if you ask me.

[Solly]

"Were the troops conscripts, yes I'd support them, as it is I don't. They're volunteers to participate in a war I oppose."

Fair enough, so you don't support the troops?

This is it, the troops knew what joining the army was about (and the analogy with private sector pensions is faulty).

[mrmitchell]

0.1/10

I hope they don't die.

But I don't want them out there in the first place.