Conservatism questions

[Stefu]

Conservatism, in my opinion, can only be coherently defined by the things it opposes - first it was "not liberalism" and then "not socialism". It's not as much an ideology as liberalism or socialism, although many people have tried to make it as such.

It is his fault that other ideologies have taken the best parts of modern conservatism?

What, the parts that modern conservatism took from market liberalism?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Conservatism believes that individuals are better capable of managing their lives than government.

Certainly this is the libertarian view (a view to which I am highly sympathetic - even if I am a little antagonistic to libertarians on Ape. I just feel libertarians have a higher standard of intellectual rigor to meet - and that should be taken as a complement.)

It is not the view of religious conservatives however. "Theocons" are more than happy to have the state impose standards of virtuous behavior on citizens.

Originally posted by Giant_Squid
Conservativism can't be defined as just "trying to keep the status quo" in a political sense because there are seemingly at least as many issues in America at least in which conservatives are the ones pushing for change. Abortion, tax reform, school vouchers, affirmative action, welfare, et cetera - in fact, whenever the current policy was set by liberals, conservatives are usually looking to reform it

Good point. I was thinking, though, along the lines of traditional values rather than policy however. Often though, the conservative lens of tradition introduces distortions - thereby creating a nostalgia for a past that never happened. E.g. the oft spoken canard that somehow the nation had more consensus and more rigid adherence to "Christian values" prior to the sexual revolution in the '60s. So in this sense, certainly, social conservatives are in many ways seeking to depart from the status quo because the past "golden age" is a fiction.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, modern conservatism is based on the writings of Burke, as Elok stated. Change should be gradual and not a sudden overthrow of tradition. The sudden overthrow, such as in the French Revolution, causes social chaos and disorder. He believes that tradition is the collected wisdom of history, so should be built upon, rather than totally cast aside.

Certainly this is not the hallmark of the contemporary conservative. Reagan and W. both shredded the institutional status quo fairly quickly.

But aside from that, Burke only speaks of maximizing a single value - social order. Now granted, social order is important. Nonetheless, social order often conflicts with another value: justice.

Take for instance, the civil rights movement and the sexual revolution. Both made rather radical changes to the social fabric in a short period of time. On the one hand, the flurry of activity in the '60s lead to massive unrest. On the other hand, a more gradual institutionalization of equality would have denied blacks and women their rights - and so would have conserved order at the cost of justice.

Similarly, a pro-life/anti-choice activist will argue against the gradualist approach to ending abortion on the grounds that murder is permitted under the status quo. So a conservative is just as likely to push Burke aside and choose justice over order in many situations.

While Burke advocates for a sort of "procedural conservatism", I don't think a political conservative really has any sympathy for Burke's position - other than its use as a rhetorical device.

[Whaleboy]

I just feel libertarians have a higher standard of intellectual rigor to meet

You know it!!

Perhaps we call people "conservatives" too quickly. One can have elements of conservatism in one sense, and in another sense, whereas the entirity of both would be contradictory. For example, one can be capitalist and theocon, but also adopt elements of anti-liberalism/anti-libertarianism, then even add certain socialist dogmas!

[Odin]

I think Liberalism and Conservatism have diffent meanings today then they did during the French Revolution:

Liberalism: The Government obeys the people.

Conservatism: The people obey the Governemmt.

BTW, The Capitalist-Socialist spectrum is at a right angle to Liberalism-Conservatism.

Liberalism + Capitalism = Libertarianism
Liberalism + Socialism = Communism
Conservatism + Capitalism = Fascism?
Conservatism + Socialism = Stalinism

[The Andy-Man]

Originally posted by Odin
Liberalism + Capitalism = Libertarianism
Liberalism + Socialism = Communism
Conservatism + Capitalism = Fascism?
Conservatism + Socialism = Stalinism

thats wrong, all wrong!

[C0ckney]

that's an 'interesting'* spectrum there odin.

*denotes complete and utter bollocks

[Odin]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

thats wrong, all wrong!

What's wrong about it?

[The Andy-Man]

its just over simplified, very deterministic and wrong.

would you call Thatcher or Regan on IAIN DUNKEN SMITH fascists?

[Whaleboy]

Liberalism: The Government obeys the people.
Conservatism: The people obey the Governemmt.

Only a loose correlation there. I can foresee a time when the flaws of democracy become apparent and the liberals call for restraint on the democracy fallacy, while conservatives hold it up as godly and good.

Liberalism + Capitalism = Libertarianism
Liberalism + Socialism = Communism
Conservatism + Capitalism = Fascism?
Conservatism + Socialism = Stalinism

Too rigid, generalised when only a rare specific situation would comply with that. The real situation is simply far more complex than that, and I'm not about to draw a hypercube to demonstrate!

[Sava]

would you call Thatcher or Regan on IAIN DUNKEN SMITH fascists?

do you want an answer to that?

[Whaleboy]

Still, nice idea in principle, I'll work on making it a little more accurate... a political map as it were

[The Andy-Man]

Originally posted by Sava
do you want an answer to that?

ok, i'll give you reagan, but IAIN DUNKEN SMITH!!!

[Sava]

IAIN DUNKEN SMITH!!!

I'm not terribly familiar with him.

[The Andy-Man]

well don't call him a fascist then

[Sava]

I didn't