Conservatism questions

[Whaleboy]

I'm planning an article on conservatism, and whereas normally I'd do my research in a library or philosophy site/forum, since the OTF seems to be a bit of a hotbed of discussion on this topic (often fanned by me sorry), I thought I'd ask you!

I need to know, what do you think conservatism is? A notion that a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush? An economically right-wing agenda? A foreign policy? A way of propagating ones values abroad? A patriotic notion? etc etc

I know what I think, but I'm biased and I need more objective information from those that actually hold this belief and call themselves conservatives.

Please dont flame this one, we all probably know each others views on liberalism vs conservatism, and most of you probably know mine , but thats not up for discussion. This is purely within the confines of conservatism itself. If you want to flame it, there are plenty of other threads and I will happily join the barbeque!

[Kuciwalker]

Conservativism is having a right-wing economic and/or social agenda.

[GePap]

Firts of all, accept that conservatives, like Liberals, seek to improve the world. Of course, their ideas mean their view of how to do it, and what success shal look like differ, but its best to start ackowledgin they don;t aim to make anythign worse.

[Whaleboy]

GePap: Of course that goes without saying. There are plenty of other political movements for evil people.

[Evil Knevil]

Traditional view:

conservatism dated back to Greek times. Homer believed in they lived in the bronze age of men, wheras before, their was a Gold and Silver age of heroes.

Mainstream conservatism seeks to reach backwards towards a stable social order. It searches for a halycon 'ages back' which makes reaction to many forms of change antithetical

More modern view:
conservatism is to enact and make better the radical reforms of previous governments. This is pretty much the standard British view.

[cinch]

Well, personally, I'd hesitate to descrive conservatism by saying anything like "right-wing" this or that... That's just circular logic, in my opinion, because both conservatism and 'right-wing' are subjective terms. They can mean a whole bunch of things, depending on who says them.

I like to stick with the classic "conservatism = maintaining the status quo, valuing tradition over progression, etc."... Now, you run into snags with that definition, too, because, for example, in Canada, the 'status quo' is "liberal" and the "conservatives" seek to change 'the way it is'... Although, it does make sense in a way, because a majority of them wish to change things back to the 'way it was'.

I rambled. Sorry.

[PLATO]

Conservatism is a reliance on the individual for their own success or failure, reliance on the community for values, and reliance on the government for roads, education, and security.

[Lincoln]

Conservatives like to conserve things that have been proven to work well. I do not believe in changing for the sake of change when a tried and proved system works fine. I also believe in conserving the environment for future generations and not trashing it in the name of capitalism. Liberty and individual choice are conservative principals because individual liberty is what made the United States to prosper. That liberty also took under consideration the community and the needs of the people as a whole. That system of individual liberty and responsability and sense of community is in a nut shell the American form of conservatinism. Of course the modern version just uses the word to justify greed.

I do not think that conservatism works when people do not care for their neighbor. It becomes simply selfishness and that will destroy any culture.

[Spiffor]

I don't think conservatism has to do directly with economic policies. Many British or American "conservatives" will bundle conservatism with a series of economic / foreign / domestic policies because "conservatism" is a label for one of the two all-encompassing parties.

Conservatism is a state of mind whose scope is smaller than a party's scope. It maily has to do with idealizing the past (and as such maintaining the status quo or going back to the old ways) and assessing the newity with caution or hostility.

That's why the content of conservatism evolves with time: for example, before the American and French revolutions, the conservative idea was to think democracy wouldn't work, and that the people should remain subjects to the king; whereas today, conservatives defend the current form of democracy.

What doesn't evolve with time is the cognitive pattern: an idealization of the past, and more or less hostility towards the unknown that promises the future.

[Whaleboy]

Spiffor: You can almost imagine some of the first struggles between conservatives and liberals... shall we walk out of Africa or not?

Plato (the poster, not the great philosopher (sorry living Plato)) has an interesting idea of it being simultaneously a kind of socialist capitalism! . One has the "rugged individualism" one associates with capitalism, and moral communism. Presumably they also determine the manner in which a functional state is run?

Personally, I think it should be the other way around to a degree, but thats irrelevant here.

Nonetheless, I do believe it stems from a fundamental cognetive process that Spiffor describes. However, I would extend that to say pragmatism, whereas other ideologies like liberalism one could argue could stem from idealism. Thoughts?

[Kuciwalker]

Spiffor: You can almost imagine some of the first struggles between conservatives and liberals... shall we walk out of Africa or not?

No, the real first struggle was between men and women: should they ask for directions? That's how they crossed the bering straight

[Evil Knevil]

Originally posted by skywalker

Spiffor: You can almost imagine some of the first struggles between conservatives and liberals... shall we walk out of Africa or not?

No, the real first struggle was between men and women: should they ask for directions? That's how they crossed the bering straight

Man "NO, I'm not stopping. I'm sure its just across here...."

2500 years later.........The Spanish are burning Tenhuchian

Woman "I told you so...."

[Bereta_Eder]

Conservatism in Grecia

Politico - Societal:The will to preserve the present status quo (that way even socialists can be conservatives, yep)

Politico-Economic: minimum state intervantion in the economy (less social state, less regulations, fewer taxes etc hence socialists are out and right wingers are in)

[PLATO]

Originally posted by elijah
Plato (the poster, not the great philosopher (sorry living Plato)) has an interesting idea of it being simultaneously a kind of socialist capitalism! . One has the "rugged individualism" one associates with capitalism, and moral communism. Presumably they also determine the manner in which a functional state is run?

Personally, I think it should be the other way around to a degree, but thats irrelevant here.

I like that..."Socialist Capitalism". The wave of the new century.

elijah, I have to disagree with you. Societies have seemed to advance when they operate from a common value system. Albiet, they do need an influx of new ideas and should be adaptable. The individual, while drawing from society, is accountable to themselves for ambition, drive, and desire. Society should not be held responsible for a lack of these.

[The Templar]

Unfortunately - or fortunately - conservatives are not a monolithic block. I used to be a libertarian myself, and never had anything but contempt for religious conservatives.

A quick and dirty division goes something like this:

(1) Fiscal conservatives: free market, anti-regulation types. Believe the market is the best way to maximize the values of the people. In the extreme form, this leads to a sort of social Darwinism.

(2) Social conservatives: like the social status quo. In the '50s, that meant Blacks "knew their place" today it means gays "know their place" and all act like the fab five. But seriously, social conservatives tend to think that social relations are the time tested products of tradition and should remain as they are. This may or may not entail a belief that the government should enforce tradition. (Bob Barr, for instance, is a social conservative but does not believe government should be empowered to enforce social mores).

Again, this is quick and dirty. Religious right types tend to be strong social conservatives who do believe in government enforcement of traditional morality. Think Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell or Bill Bennett (when not playing the slots that is). Religious right people tend not to be so hot on the free market though.

Neocons tend to see religion as a useful operating system for "the masses" but many don't seem to take religion that seriously themselves.

Libertarians, at least the ones I know and like I used to be, tend to have strong faith in an unfettered market. But also tend to be socially liberal - favoring things like drug legalization and gay marriage (or in the alternate, government extracting itself from the marriag ebusiness altogether).

Conservatism is a broad field, and different types of conservatives tend not to get along. Kind of like liberals.