"I want my life back!"

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
In other words: Let's not compare this to the Palestine-Israel situation

Human "negotiations" are human "negotiations."

No matter what your intentions are, the other guys can pretty often force you down to their level, whether you like it or not.

So you may as well be competent dealing at their level, too.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
* Azazel is relieved when he understands that not everyone on 'poly has the same dirty mind he has.

Even like that, you have to admit it is an efficient method (in a twisted kind of way)

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I am glad MtG was able to deal with bullies in an appropriate way, however it is not always an available option for everyone, as often times the victims are much weaker then the agressors, and is of course outnumbered.

I had two school years where I was the low kid on the totem pole, due to extended, serious illnesses the previous summers. Sometimes, I was outnumbered in fights six one one or more, once nine on one.

Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that.

Uh huh. And schools through their disciplinary actions are always able to keep bullies in tow. The Court in this case is able to do far more in terms of enforcing reperation and setting an example.

I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions. And yes, schools can do far more than they do, without going to the opposite neuroses exemplified by some abuses of "zero tolerance" policies that have occurred here in nutty San Diego.

Research has pretty well established that victimization can cause psychological damage. Suicide is an extreme reaction, but it seems a little callous to blame children who are subjected to isolated and repeated physical and/or mental abuse for not being tough enough.

When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed.

[st_swithin]

You know, after a while, even the THREAT of a severe beating can be enough to cow the strongest souls.

Especially if you've taken enough beatings to substantiate the threat.

[notyoueither]

MtG, I get your points about other problems, but get mine.

I see this court case as an example of punitive action for behaviour that can be seen as bullying. So long as nothing serious is done about bullying it will continue. The more it is demonstrated by people through schools, the courts, and the police that bullying will be punished in real terms, the more likely it will be that parents will curb this socially unacceptable behaviour in their own kids. That is why I like the fact that this case has been brought.

When people do bad things to other people, there should be and are consequences in just about all cases. It has not been so in the past with bullying. When I grew up it was more often the case that they who were bullied would be told to 'toughen up' and the bully or bullies might get a detention (if that). Well, that is changing and it needs to.

This case is just an example of the fact that bullying behaviour is not being tolerated anymore in some places, and that those who behave as bullies will face real consequences instead of having their behaviour largely ignored.

You don't agree with it. OK, but I'll bet many people will be paying more attention to the behaviour of their children towards others, and that will be a darned fine thing.

One last thing, bullying is often accomplished by harassment, theft, extortion, and or assault. On what planet would we tell an adult to buck up and get tough when faced with such acts in places they should be safe, like work? Why do some people expect children to suffer them, or 'get tough' and resort to assault in retaliation? These are really good things to be telling kids, aren't they?

[st_swithin]

My Dad always swore that if he couldn't leave me any money (which he didn't), he'd leave me exactly ONE THING:

The ability to take care of myself, no matter WHAT I went through.

As of today, I still have all my own teeth, fingers, and toes. I've got a LOT of scars and a handful of tattoos, and I like to believe I'm living EXACTLY the way he'd always hoped I would - INDEPENDENTLY.

Have you guys seen Gloria Estefan's hair lately?

[Shi Huangdi]

MtG:

"Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that."

Come on, MtG. You know better to generalize your own situation and assume that your solution in your one school in your one particular circumstance. Often times the lowest kid on the totem poll is so physically underpowered to make any type of violence unrealalistic.

In my case, I am sad to say, I dealt with these types of people with the threat of violence and getting my friends to threaten violence and that worked well enough. With other people they were not able to do so. However, it cannot be at all an acceptable situation that people are forced to rely upon violence or suffer their circumstances. Jesus said to turn the other cheek as slapped, as Christians we should want a school environment in which violence is removed from the equation as much as possible.

"

I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions."

Well, for high school if bullying meant a chance of losing $ he needs for college bullies might be a little more adverse, and threat of litigation against the parents might make the parents do more to ensure that their kids don't engage in this behavior.


"When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed."

I can't agree. Being in the lowest postion socially, isolation, repeated physical and mental abuse, and being forced day in and day out to go into this abusive situation the person comes to dread can indeed lead to problems. Responses can vary, research has indicated victims offer suffer from depression or some form of psychological problem(even long after the bullying has ended!) Suicide of course would form the extreme end of the spectrum. Victims of this should be entitled to legal compensation. And again, as far as fixing the problem is concerned, the threat of legal action can be another factor added in dissuading people from bullying.

[jdd2007]

Originally posted by st_swithin
Have you guys seen Gloria Estefan's hair lately?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
One last thing, bullying is often accomplished by harassment, theft, extortion, and or assault. On what planet would we tell an adult to buck up and get tough when faced with such acts in places they should be safe, like work? Why do some people expect children to suffer them, or 'get tough' and resort to assault in retaliation? These are really good things to be telling kids, aren't they?

As opposed to telling them "if anyone says or does something to you that you don't like, be sure to run and tell the teacher, or tell us so we can sue."

The remedy needed depends on the situation. The adult world is also a bit different from the schoolyard, if you hadn't noticed.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


As opposed to telling them "if anyone says or does something to you that you don't like, be sure to run and tell the teacher, or tell us so we can sue."

The remedy needed depends on the situation. The adult world is also a bit different from the schoolyard, if you hadn't noticed.

Wouldn't an adult run to the cops and press criminal charges? Yes, I think they would. Why should kids put up with it?

Different? Yes, but some kids have died as a consequence of this shiet. How much more adult do you want to be?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
MtG:

"Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that."

Come on, MtG. You know better to generalize your own situation and assume that your solution in your one school in your one particular circumstance. Often times the lowest kid on the totem poll is so physically underpowered to make any type of violence unrealalistic.

Believe it or not, I've actually known other people, been to more than one school, and seen this type of situation more than once.

And oftentimes, the lowest kid on the totem pole who is so underpowered for reasons other than actual disability. A lot of underpowered kids get through without much adverse attention.

In my case, I am sad to say, I dealt with these types of people with the threat of violence and getting my friends to threaten violence and that worked well enough. With other people they were not able to do so. However, it cannot be at all an acceptable situation that people are forced to rely upon violence or suffer their circumstances. Jesus said to turn the other cheek as slapped, as Christians we should want a school environment in which violence is removed from the equation as much as possible.

Whether it's an acceptable situation, or one we want to face, is irrelevant. If it's the situation you're dealt, you deal with it as it is, not as you wish it was.

"I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions."

Well, for high school if bullying meant a chance of losing $ he needs for college bullies might be a little more adverse, and threat of litigation against the parents might make the parents do more to ensure that their kids don't engage in this behavior.

That's assuming the average bully is planning on going to college. I haven't met too many of those, but it depends on how you define "bully." I'm sure there are plenty of trial lawyers out there looking for an opportunity to extend tort law into the schoolyard, and of course, in the US, they'll include the school districts as defendants, going after the easier to get "deep pocket" i.e. the taxpayers.

Especially when you take it to a psychological level, there's a whole range of behavior from the snotty exclusive social groups to chronic harassment and hazing. Before you create the next trial lawyer's goldmine, better come up with some liability standards first.

"When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed."

I can't agree. Being in the lowest postion socially, isolation, repeated physical and mental abuse, and being forced day in and day out to go into this abusive situation the person comes to dread can indeed lead to problems. Responses can vary, research has indicated victims offer suffer from depression or some form of psychological problem(even long after the bullying has ended!) Suicide of course would form the extreme end of the spectrum. Victims of this should be entitled to legal compensation. And again, as far as fixing the problem is concerned, the threat of legal action can be another factor added in dissuading people from bullying.

If the student is within the age appropriate norm psychologically, and the school something other than an unsupervised Lord of the flies hellhole, than the kind of severe and chronic abuse you're talking about is pretty damned rare. Lower levels of abuse are more common, and some degree of chicken**** is pretty universal, but you'd better have a policy definition of what is and what isn't grounds for legal action or disciplinary action within the school.

I don't buy that school officials can't exert reasonable control of what happens on campus - unless they want to take the path of least resistance. I assume other states have their own names and versions, but California has an entirely separate subsystem of continuation schools that deal with various kinds and types of problem kids. As far as I'm concerned, if the real *******s really want to act up and mess with other kids, let 'em go to school in Juvey. I still think that with the exception of clearly defined, exceptional cases, letting plaintiff's lawyers milk the schoolyard victim market is completely counterproductive.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Wouldn't an adult run to the cops and press criminal charges? Yes, I think they would. Why should kids put up with it?

Do people run to the mounties or whoever and file charges because they're not popular with their neighbors? Or because the nasty neighbor says nasty things?

Different? Yes, but some kids have died as a consequence of this shiet. How much more adult do you want to be?

Ah, yes, let's take atypical extreme examples, rather then the much more common mundane ones.

I assume you have a juvenile criminal justice system there in Canada? And that if there's an actual chargeable offense committed, people can make complaints to the authorities?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Do people run to the mounties or whoever and file charges because they're not popular with their neighbors? Or because the nasty neighbor says nasty things?

Yes, in cases of persistent harrassment, people can be charged here. In cases of a single theft, assault, or act of extortion, charges are quite properly laid.

Would you prefer it otherwise? Why do you expect children to endure things no adult would?

Ah, yes, let's take atypical extreme examples, rather then the much more common mundane ones.

I assume you have a juvenile criminal justice system there in Canada? And that if there's an actual chargeable offense committed, people can make complaints to the authorities?

The problem is that acts that are committed by children on children are not deemed serious. The victim is supposed to 'get tough', just like your attitude herein.

Well frack that!

One child who died because society condoned criminal behaviour of children on children is one too many.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Yes, in cases of persistent harrassment, people can be charged here. In cases of a single theft, assault, or act of extortion, charges are quite properly laid.

Would you prefer it otherwise? Why do you expect children to endure things no adult would?

"He shoved me into my locker in the hallway"
"No I didn't, he wasn't watching, and he backed into me"

"He told me he was gonna kick my ass if I didn't give him a dollar"
"No I didn't, I asked if I could borrow a dollar to get a coke"

"He called me a nasty name, I wanna complain for harassment"
"He called me a nastier name first, I wanna complain for harassment, waaaah"

I can just see court systems filled with deep, serious, meaningful issues such as who shot the spitwads at little Johnny.

Not too long ago in the news, there was a deal about one school in the US that spent two million dollars installing 500 or so videocams for "security." Hey, great, I'm sure they had that money just lying around, and it didn't take away from any other programs. Now we can just extend the idea, and make sure that we schools keep archives of all these tapes and have tribunals (or let's let prosecutors deal with this ) to sort out every little verbal tiff and altercation, and alleged verbal tiff and altercation in school.

The problem is that acts that are committed by children on children are not deemed serious. The victim is supposed to 'get tough', just like your attitude herein.

Maybe if they're not serious acts, they're not taken seriously. Or are your school systems so messed up that if a kid gets a broken arm or broken nose from a fight, that gets blown off?

Well frack that!

One child who died because society condoned criminal behaviour of children on children is one too many.

Duuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But that's hardly what we're talking about, is it?

[notyoueither]

No, what we are talking about is the kids, and their parents, who stole property and sent images to the world to ridicule a class mate are being sued into the next century.

Bravo!

Oh, btw, there are plenty of witnesses to any serious bullying. The crimes just have to be taken seriously. Like in this case:

http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/034102/news/034102nn1.html