Israel OKs Raids Against Terror Suspects

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah
Of course, it would be difficult for the Israelis to restrain themselves after such an attack, lets not get away from the fact that it is a heinous crime, the desire for revenge is understandable, but imo must not be allowed to bear fruit.

I suppose whether they do hold back or not is down to how much they want to break out of the circle of strike and counter strike. After all, that only kills more people pointlessly, and it is an utterly pointless conflict. Having said that, the Israeli military is not under the command of the victims families...

beyond revenge the desire for results of justice the desire for preventitive action. If u sit on ur hands u BETTER BE DAMN SURE ur getting somewhere. cuz u r letting ur ppl continue to die w/o taking meaningful corrective action.

[Whaleboy]

beyond revenge the desire for results of justice the desire for preventitive action

Justice is something that must be determined objectively, not by the wounded party against the aggressor. Thats not justice, thats vigilantism.

taking meaningful corrective action.

Which is causing more people, your own and the pals to die. If the Israelis stop incursions, stop attacks, pull out of Palestinian towns and stop building settlements, all reasonable propositions, then the terrorism, or to be safe, the vast bulk of it, will stop.

Ideally, I'd like Israel returned to its legitimate borders, those of 1967, but realistically, the above is the best I expect.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


Justice is something that must be determined objectively, not by the wounded party against the aggressor. Thats not justice, thats vigilantism.



Which is causing more people, your own and the pals to die. If the Israelis stop incursions, stop attacks, pull out of Palestinian homes and stop building settlements, all reasonable propositions, then the terrorism, or to be safe, the vast bulk of it, will stop.

Ideally, I'd like Israel returned to its legitimate borders, those of 1967, but realistically, the above is the best I expect.

so when u return israel to its 1967 borders and hamas blows up another person ona bus? wut then? do u say "whoops our bad, u can have that land back now israel."

and the sense of justice is not vigilantiism. its part of feeling secure in ur society. if crimes goes unabated or unpunished u cease to feel safe.

[Whaleboy]

so when u return israel to its 1967 borders and hamas blows up another person ona bus? wut then? do u say "whoops our bad, u can have that land back now israel."

After the Palestinian people stop suffering, do not expect more terrorism, or rather, expect terrorist orgs to be running on empty, and THEN you may go in, providing the climate is right, to find your bullets new homes. Of course, its preferable to arrest them.

and the sense of justice is not vigilantiism

Like I said, justice must be objective. The sense of justice you refer to, being satisfied by vigilante acts is not justice, it is revenge. It may make you feel safer, but in reality, you are in more danger. As a government, should you be populist and pander to peoples simple minded dillusions in order to win votes, or do you take the measures necessary to ensure success? Soul searching time Mr Sharon.

[Whaleboy]

Why do I get the feeling I am about to repeat myself?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


After the Palestinian people stop suffering, do not expect more terrorism, or rather, expect terrorist orgs to be running on empty, and THEN you may go in, providing the climate is right, to find your bullets new homes. Of course, its preferable to arrest them.



Like I said, justice must be objective. The sense of justice you refer to, being satisfied by vigilante acts is not justice, it is revenge. It may make you feel safer, but in reality, you are in more danger. As a government, should you be populist and pander to peoples simple minded dillusions in order to win votes, or do you take the measures necessary to ensure success? Soul searching time Mr Sharon.

I am either not making myself clear or u r not understanding. I am not refering to quenching the thirst for revenge. I am reffering to an ability to keep ppl feeling safe in their own society. if u have a crime like suicide bombings and u sit on ur **** while its going on. ppl will cease to feel safe, THIS HAS NOTHIGN TO DO W/ ANGER OR REVENGE. It is simply put that ppl want to feel that things are being done actively to keep them safe. that the gov't is not just relying on THE GOOD WILL OF PPL WHO BLOW THEMSELVES UP in order to bring peace.

how much suffering are we behooved to stop? wut if their economy is still ass? wut if its backwards led by a bunch of radicals? are we obliged to simply make them a welfare state? how much will quench them? if they are a radical state how can we even get the money to the ppl(as opposed to say militant groups). u r relying on mechanisms that don't exist in palestinian society.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah
Why do I get the feeling I am about to repeat myself?

ppl often lapse into old bad habits.

[Whaleboy]

I am either not making myself clear or u r not understanding

I call BS!!!

reffering to an ability to keep ppl feeling safe in their own society

I am referring to an ability to keep them actually safe, if not feeling safe. Sometimes son you have to defy common sense in order to work with the big picture.

What does "whut" mean?

whut if..., whut if...., whut if..., whut if....,

Terrorists are attacking you for a reason... that is that you have wrong them. Remove that reaon. (that is not NECESSARILY complying with their demands, and when the two deviate, never comply with the demands). Its pretty simple really, but in cases of sociologically inspired terrorism, force simply doesnt work. You deal with the society. Its not rocket science. Nonetheless, like I said, it wont win the politicians votes, and it will piss off the simple minded, so I dont hold out much hope of peace or an end to terrorism any time soon.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


I call BS!!!



I am referring to an ability to keep them actually safe, if not feeling safe. Sometimes son you have to defy common sense in order to work with the big picture.

What does "whut" mean?



Terrorists are attacking you for a reason... that is that you have wrong them. Remove that reaon. (that is not NECESSARILY complying with their demands, and when the two deviate, never comply with the demands). Its pretty simple really, but in cases of sociologically inspired terrorism, force simply doesnt work. You deal with the society. Its not rocket science. Nonetheless, like I said, it wont win the politicians votes, and it will piss off the simple minded, so I dont hold out much hope of peace or an end to terrorism any time soon.

its funny how u allow the arabs to be real ppl. to have emotions, to be "freedom fighters" to have basic human needs(the need to feel secure!) and u demand the israeli's martyr themselves because U THINK that this will somehow make the terorrism stop. the grand canyon of double standards.

and btw I've never EVER heard that hamas is simply trying to stop israel from killing palestinians. I have heard that hamas wishing the total annhilation of israel and all jews.

ask urself this question. if tomorrow the israeli's stopped everything would the suicide bombers stop? My answer is no. they would not.

If tomorrow the palestinians stopped everything would the Israeli's stop? My answer is yes.

now there is some confusion in here, like what israeli's do w/ ppl who they think committed acts before, or how much faith either side has in the other's promises. but playing hypothetical the Israeli's are the reactants, the palestinians are the instigators.

[Whaleboy]

its funny how u allow the arabs to be real ppl. to have emotions, to be "freedom fighters" to have basic human needs(the need to feel secure!) and u demand the israeli's martyr themselves

Again with the strawman. Both are real peoples, same emotions etc, but Israel is the bigger kid.

and btw I've never EVER heard that hamas is simply trying to stop israel from killing palestinians. I have heard that hamas wishing the total annhilation of israel and all jews.

I have no love for Hamas, being Jewish myself. Again, we do not comply with them, we create the conditions required for them to stop, as previously outlined. Indeed, it would seem that the architects of the "road map" would concur.

ask urself this question. if tomorrow the israeli's stopped everything would the suicide bombers stop? My answer is no. they would not.

If the Palestinians blame the Israelis for their woes, then it will be a case of give an inch, take a mile. That is why they need a state with equal or greater funding from that US to Israel. That will indeed help calm things across the Arab world, buying the West much needed political capital in that respect.

And no, they would not stop instantly. However, if my neighbour blows himself up on a bus, I do not expect the British army to occupy my street/town! In a few years, terrorism would be but a distant memory, and that is after all, what we are aiming for here. Force will only yield yet more innocent casualties on both sides.

If tomorrow the palestinians stopped everything would the Israeli's stop? My answer is yes.

Would the Israelis pull out of the West bank? Possibly. Would they continue to target the now docile terrorist orgs, most likely. Would they continue to offend Palestinian beliefs (one of the causes of the current uprising)? Yes. Indeed, what would conceivably cause the Palestinians to stop?

One side has to put its neck on the line at some point, and, as the bigger kid, it must be Israel. Kudos to the Palestinians if they do so, which I encourage, but doubt it'll happen.

playing hypothetical the Israeli's are the reactants, the palestinians are the instigators

IIRC that last attack was provoked by the Israelis. If you keep going back chicken and egg style, you will find the current uprising was an egg laid by an Israeli chicken, namely Ariel Sharon.

[Whaleboy]

Anyway, as was the case with the other thread, I feel I'm repeating myself - reiterating my points in the face of strawmen . I got a date with a pillow!

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


Again with the strawman. Both are real peoples, same emotions etc, but Israel is the bigger kid.



I have no love for Hamas, being Jewish myself. Again, we do not comply with them, we create the conditions required for them to stop, as previously outlined. Indeed, it would seem that the architects of the "road map" would concur.



If the Palestinians blame the Israelis for their woes, then it will be a case of give an inch, take a mile. That is why they need a state with equal or greater funding from that US to Israel. That will indeed help calm things across the Arab world, buying the West much needed political capital in that respect.

And no, they would not stop instantly. However, if my neighbour blows himself up on a bus, I do not expect the British army to occupy my street/town! In a few years, terrorism would be but a distant memory, and that is after all, what we are aiming for here. Force will only yield yet more innocent casualties on both sides.

I think its been aptly pointed out that terorrism comes from within. there are many poor ppl in the world. they are not all terorrists. u continue to attack the problem from the outside, how much ass can the west kiss until the arabs are satisfied. well the problem is from w/in, they wont be satisfied. u can't stand outside palestine and change it. Though t his line of logic permeates ur entire attitude towards the middle east. that left alone it will become a modern industrialized socialist democracy and NOT a radical hotbed of extremist religious hate and warlords.

and ur analogy is very poor but can be extrapolated correctly. if ur neighbor blew up a bus, then a shopping mall then a disco then a movie theatre. police presence in ur neighborhood would greatly increase. this indeed might not be ur greatest fortune to have such neighbors. but now lets compound it by although u rn't necessarily willing to blow crap up, u certainly dont like the police and actually think ur neighbor is right in his actions. so now the police come and ask u questions and u tell them to go **** themselves. continue this for a few decades.

I still ask, what happens when Israel sticks their **** into the shredder and it doesn't help? wut will u do then? give israel its land back? destroy palestine? invade it? when u realize that the problem is from w/in what will u do? I think something like "glad I"m not in israel" comes to mind.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah
Anyway, as was the case with the other thread, I feel I'm repeating myself - reiterating my points in the face of strawmen . I got a date with a pillow!

for someone who claims such high levels of intellectual sophistication ur tendency for condescention is extraordinary. Whenever I imagine someone truly intellectualy sophisticated I don't imagine a condescending *****. maybe thats just me tho.

[yavoon]

wth how is that a censored word? man u guys have crazy censors.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by elijah
And people think my ideas are devoid of emotion! *cough*at least mine are devoid of negative karma*cough*

Al'Kimiya is right that as long as two people claim the same land and the Arabs continue to demand every Jew be killed or deported then every Israeli offer for peace will not work. They've made numerous honest attempts and Arafat has shot everyone done, continued to sponsor terrorism through out the process, and acted like Adi Amin or some other terrible dictator. The Palestinian people keep him in power and have choicen violence. They are as much responsible for the PA's crimes against humanity as the German people were for Hitler's crimes against humanity.

I've always found it morbidly funny that everyone looked the other way when several million Germans were ethnically cleansed from the Sudentland, East Prussia, and Danzieg at the end of WW2 because the "German people" (read: German government) had commited such terrible crimes so they "forfieted" (Stalin's word I believe) thos territories. By this very same token the Palestinians are no less deserving of being driven out of the West Bank and Gaza.